Wing Chun and Wing Tsun differences.

[Draven Chen Zhen]

There was once a post with the same question

 

=> http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12785

 

Maybe you should take a look

[ovine king]

would it be rude to ask where you train? i've not come across many non yip man wing chun in london.

[KungFuMan]

ovine king,

 

I train with a sifu who does not currently teach the public because of time restrictions.

 

kungfuman

[KungFuMan]

pvwinchun,

 

I agree with you. The problem is some of the "sifus" nowadays don't even know about and/or certain Wing Chun aspects such as the grappling (among others). Many so called martial arts researches or "experts" don't even know that they exist in Wing Chun.

 

The problem is that when one trains with a sifu who does not practise correct Wing Chun or one who teaches the "new and improved" or "modern" Wing Chun, then one cannot hope to experience the full richness of this style. This in turn means that they have to look and research elsewhere, and believe me, in an era of Mcdojos or Mckwoons, this is not easy.

 

KungFuMan

[DunDunna]

WC and WT are exactly the same thing. the same as wing chun, wing tsun, ving tsun, they are all the same, just different spelling thats it. just like tai chi, and taiji.

 

they are all pronounced the same (at least they SHOULD be) the 'ts' in chinese is pronounced "CH". for instance theres a chinese beer names "Tsing Tao" and the pronounciation is "ching dao"

[ovine king]

as to whether or not grappling is in wing chun is questionable.

 

the thing is, the 'grappling', by ways of chin-na hands and some other swith/slow tehniques from them, was always taught as almost a sidething; as in 'if you find yourself like this, you can do this...'.

 

the motions are not exactly in the forms, with the exception of locks that flow from hand motions which invariably lead to a take down of some sort as it flows. best example is what i know as 'small circle hands' which can be done if your wing arm is grabbed (you cover his grabbing hand and circle to lock the wrist to take down). the actual lock and take down isn't in the forms but it is still taught as a technique.

 

at least that was how i was taught.

 

from what i gather, the actual forms in yip man wing chun, yuen kay shan wing chun and pan nam wing chun, as well as many others, are actually very similar and the only differences are the terminology used to express principles,cheung bo's form and the sun hei gung yuen aside.

 

don't forget that yuen kay shan and yip man were known to train together and if i recall correctly, it was this training that lead to them devising/refining the poon sau exercise/drills.

 

the problem i see isn't that people are teaching simplified or standardised wing chun. the way i see it, people are teaching what they were taught and not seeing what was behind the things they learnt.

 

let's look at yip man's teaching.

 

he was known to have taught every student according to their own personal differences. this meant that he taught people how to apply the wing chun principles according to them. what this also means is that in most instances, he ended up teaching people how to do, instead of why they do. it isn't a question of modern or traditional or even about the style. it's about who teaches and how they teach and what they are teaching for. you say your style has grappling not found in many yip man wing chun schools but then again, one of yip mans' nephew's teachings wing chun as a 'grappling' art to a police school.

[KungFuMan]

DunDunna,

 

WC and WT SHOULD be the same thing just like Tai chi and Taiji are. The name Wing Tsun has for a while been registred and is a business trademark.

 

Ovine King,

 

If wether or not grappling is in Wing Chun is questionable then maybe you should put that to Yip Man's nephew who is teaching WC grappling to the Hong Kong police. The fact is from what I have seen and heard (which may not be much in the grand scale of things) Yip Man Wing Chun - as taught in kwoons that are open to the general public - seems to be taught without the inclusion of grappling/groundfighting. This reflects in the fact that the existence of grappling in WC is not known to many martial artists including many WC practioners themselves.

 

Also if people are "teaching what they were taught" without seeing what is behind what they learnt then are they not teaching simplified Wing Chun. Also, I believe some people do simplify and standardise Wing Chun (and other kung fu styles) further to make it easier to teach. Just my view. So you can find Wing Chun schools that don't even practise chi kung in any significant way....kung fu WITHOUT chi kung.....what kung fu?

 

Going back to existance of grappling in Wing Chun being questionable, I would like to add that ground fighting is officially part of my Wing Chun syllabus.

 

KungFuMan

[DunDunna]

okay so ones a business trademark, other than that are they not the same fighting art?

 

being a trademark has nothing to do with techniques and that is what we're talking about isnt it?

[KungFuMan]

DunDunna,

 

As I have said before, WC and WT SHOULD be the same art. The problem is that according to what I have heard WT is meant to be shall we say a more "evolved" style. Or more "practical" for "modern times" etc.

 

When you come down to it WC and WT are the same arts with the latter one being somewhat a little modified. I am not saying that this is necessarily bad or good just that sometimes when traditional MA styles are modified or "improved" they loose their essence and yes even their effectiveness in the long term - at the expense of effectiveness gained in the short term.

 

This may or may not be the case with Wing Tsun, but it certainly is with many Wing Chun and other traditional MAs.

 

KungFuMan

[Thaegen]

For me personal WT is good. I think it is more evolved. + There is one difference I know of. Some wing chun schools "do" search for an active Bon-sau. while in Wing Tsun it is a more passive bon-sau. We don't look for it. Like on NickWC his site, where his sifu shows kicking techniques.

 

+ Grandmaster Leung Ting, was the last student of Great grandmaster Yip man. Some people say he learned a softer WT, because Great Grandmaster Yip man was terminal sick.

 

But again I only practice WT for a year. I train hard. I believe that one of the most important things in WT are the two first forms. Sia nim tau and Chum Kiu. These two forms need to be trained each day. + Sparring is very important also Lat-sau and chi-sau.

 

+ I don't know if there is groundwork in WT/WC, doesn't matter I am going to start taking BJJ also from this week on.