Lineage ????

[stonecrusher69]

William Chueng is well know,so some people will always give some negative comments.There not much you can do about that.Just have faith in what your doing and don't worry what other people think.The style of W.C.K I practice is not very well known and a lot people think its made up,so if they think that its fine with me I could careless...Of course all Gong Fu is made up.someone made it up.Whats important is not the lineage but if it's any good.

[daedelus4]

Stonecrusher69:

First, thank you for your response--it was well received, Secondly, I agree with your comment that at its barest element all martial arts were made up by someone--that is part of the reason why I enjoy Wing Chun so much becuase it was intentionally created to be used & used successfully in a time period when your knowledge of a fighting art was put to the test regularly. Just for the sake of the general conversation however, I have to agree with the general sentiment that while lineage can be important what should matter most is what you are taking from your instruction-regardless of lineage. Ed Parker was very successful in his version of Kenpo and while it might give one bragging rights to say they learned from him specifically, it should not be a detraction from the art itself to have learned it from another instructor.

[stonecrusher69]

Good luck with your training...

[ovine king]

I'm not too sure I'm entirely happy that you chose to adorn Bruce lee's name with "the late great" but then Yip Man's name was left with nothing.

The thing with lineage is that it should allow you to get an instant idea of its provenance. The closer to the source you are, the closer you are (supposed to be) to the original thing you are learning. Yes, the important thing is whether the thing you are learning is good or not but then again, if the lineage is accurate and good, then this question wouldn't need to be addressed anyway. Taking Yip Man wing chun as an example. By knowing your lineage, you'd have a pretty godd idea of the differences your style may have with someone elses. If i tell you I practice and train with mainly with people from WSL's line then you'd know that I am going to be more actual fight orientated. If i tell you that I am a Lee Shing line student then you'd know that I am a more traditional student who also might have also trained in other versions of wing chun not taught by Yip Man.

The short of it is that Lineage isn't a bragging rights thing, it is there to help you understand more about what it is you are learning.

[Menjo]

for some reason i cannot back up, lineage is very important to my training.....

[Spencer]

With regards to Chinese Martial Arts (CMA) lineage only matters to those that wish to learn the complete system.

Of course this depends on the age of your chosen CMA. The further from the origin (as already stated) then the more it will have changed.

However, lineage doesn't mean that you can't be an effective fighter or learn from a good teacher (at teaching how to be an good fighter)

But to learn a complete martial art generally lineage counts.

There are two types of student of a lineaged master.

Outdoor Students. These pay the bills. Can learn how to be effective fighters.

Indoor Students. These learn everything they wish to know from the Master (at the Masters pace of course) They can also learn how to be effective fighters.

The first thing everyone seems to misunderstand is that lineage does not mean that you WILL be a great fighter or teacher.

It just means that you have the knowledge to be an effective fighter in the chosen style, because it is (usually) taught to you with no reservations.

Something to also bear in mind,

There are two types of lineage. Family Heirs and those that have just learnt from someone who does have a lineage.

To be part of the "family" you go through a Bai Si Ceremony. A confucian ancestor worship ritual pledging fealty to the ancestors of the style.

Those that do not go through this can claim to be taught by someone who has but this is obviously not as good as actually being one themselves.

Unfortunately people not in the know, understandably don't know the diffference and many people list lineages without stating categorically whether they are disciples (faimly members) or not. Those potential students who see the lineage think "My they must be good" (sneaky of those that post the lineage)

This I believe is the second reason why people disparage lineages.

Postscript.

Analogy.

Imagine going to University to get a degree and finding out that other students in the course get to learn more of the syllabus in your chosen field.

Will it make them better? Possibly not but will it given the statistically the chance to be better. Yes.

[Taiji Mistress]

Lineage is of no importance to me on my taijiquan journey. The more I learn the more I realise that no-one has the complete system. It is fragmented but fortunately there are some very talented people out there training hard and bringing it slowly back together.

The likes of B.K. Frances and Alex Kozma spring to mind.

During the time I have been doing the long form it has changed out of all recognition as newly aquired principles are applied and refined. When doing my private practice I often spontainiously *dance* utilising taiji principles instead of set practice.

Given that all taiji forms were created, refined, handed down refined etc. etc. for countless generations nobody can claim to practice a pure form.

I am very happy to have *let go* of lineage as I continue to practice and question the form I do...yang style long form, butterfly variation.

Or as we all call it.... mongrel taiji quan.

[stonecrusher69]

I think if your just into the MA for your self Linage is not important,but ifyou intend to teach at some point then you need to know it.If your student ask about the style what do you say?

[Menjo]

I think if your just into the MA for your self Linage is not important,but ifyou intend to teach at some point then you need to know it.If your student ask about the style what do you say?

Exellent point, and i think one of the aspects of martial arts is to pass your skills on to other martial artists when the time is right.

[White Warlock]

Hmm...

It is necessary, under any condition, to be able to validate authenticity. Effectiveness can only be determined by direct application in a real-life setting and/or through 'full resistance' training, so stating "it works" is not sufficient, and many people are suckered into believing something works, when it only works at 1/2 speed (the training norm)... not at full speed.

I find that information on lineage helps to determine the 'viability' of the art, whether there is an undercurrent of dishonesty inherent in it. As i've indicated in some other threads, there are arts with a lineage that presents quite disturbing information. Information that clearly shows falsivity. With this comes the concern that 'all you learn' may not be 'all that valid' in an actual situation.

And while lineage does not 'guarantee' the quality of instruction, it does give at least a base for the art you are attempting to study, as well as a base for the artist you are attempting to study under. It's just that, not all good artists can teach, just as not all martial arts actually work.

A lineage that stretches too far back into a different time, or different circumstances, tends to present a problem for me. What we deal with now, how the arts are now... with the mixing and merging of Eastern, Western, Southern and other... there is a clear evolution to the arts that a particular system, adherent to the 'ways of yore,' may simply not be up to the task that such changes have presented.

On the other hand, if i wanted to learn the use of the katana, i would far prefer a lineage that reaches to that different time... because we don't use, nor do we apply, katanas in this day and age.