Whats the Difference between Brazilian and Japanese Jujitsu?

[SevenStar]

They are labeled thusly because in part, they are. Making something a sport doesn't necessarily make it better...it makes it a game. Any fight that your life and well being isn't depending on IS A GAME, and that's exactly why you don't see more traditional arts in competition.

 

traditional arts are a game, if that's the case. drilling with a cooperative partner, light contact sparring - even full contact - none of it is real, and is thus a game, correct? If you disagree, then explain what is more real about them.

 

 

Well unless one of us is the next Gene Lebell or Bruce Lee, that holds little meaning...

 

it holds meaning in reference to your comment - you stated that masters don't compete against eachother. His disproved what you said.

 

 

Let's put this into someone interested in the sporting aspect (such as yourself, obviously) can understand. Respect is important. Period. If you do not respect your opponent, you will think less of him. Then your chances of losing are greater. You can be as cocky as hell, it won't improve your skills.

 

there's a difference between cockiness and disrespect.

 

 

Ever think that they don't want to play your game? Attack a traditional martial artist, back him into a corner...I gauruntee that different results will be yielded. True martial artists train to survive, and keep to using their skills as a last result. Fighting in the ring is detrimental to that. You can call people cowards for that, they'll let it slide. To fight for the sake of fighting makes you a brawler, nothing more. A skilled brawler perhaps, but still a brawler.

 

I disagree. especially in this day and age. actual physical MA training has little if anything to do with survival. We dont live in times where we are getting attacked daily. And even when we do, weapons are usually involved. We live in the time of the gun, and MA training doesn't help much against that. Not to mention that the majority of people out there will NEVER even get into an altercation after they reach adulthood.

 

 

You state that JJJ is all around inferior to your art because a few brawlers from BJJ beat a few from JJJ. I'd say that the masters (though you wouldn't call them that) would be insulted. Disregard for the facts? Nay, I disagree with your opinion. You are adamant about something, That's good. Still doesn't make it right.

 

perhaps his point is that their training methods are inferior. That does not imply any disrespect for the style at all.

[ovine king]

...and we get onto the point i have always made.

 

the training and realistic practice is way more important the actual style that you are taking.

 

kano showed it to be true.

 

the gracies showed it to be true.

 

heck, even the older wing chun guys, back when fighting was common in hk showed it to be true.

 

look at the past generation and how they trained and you will see the one thing they all had in common was that they really did live and breath their respective martial arts.

 

they didn't just perform the forms and make nice poses. they trained hard and heavy against other people who didn't mind a bit of blood on their shirts.

 

actual fighting was part of their training.

 

how many of us actually train anywhere near that level?

 

off the top of my head, the only people i can think of who do that are the pro fighters.

 

now i'm not one to say whether or not one art is better than another, especially when the talk of ring vs street is quite pointless as both are practically immeasurable quantities with un-repeatable results

 

but

 

numbers do say something and you can't argue with the success of BJJ and other ground fighting arts over the stand-up arts as well as other similar but more 'traditional' arts..

 

my wing chun against a bjj guy?

 

i don't think i have a chance because

 

i) they train harder than i do:

 

their regular training is the same as their fighting.

 

my regular training is something to prepare me for the reality of fighting. my actual fighting is much, much less.

 

ii) they train to get people onto the ground.

 

i don't train to remain standing (it is almost assumed that i can....)

 

iii) on the ground i do not know how to safely disengage.

 

i can possibly fight back but i can't say that i would be happy there.

 

the biggest thing to me is the second point.

 

whereas they train to get to the floor, i can't see how you can train to prevent him from going to the floor.

 

please note; what i have typed is about differences in training and methods. the use of wing chun as a reference is incidental, which is why i talk about what I can or can't do.

[GhostlySykanRyu]

" It just so happens that the best fighters happen to be the ones who are also fighting in the ring. "

 

You don't know that. You're stating that because you don't know any good fighters outside of the ring, because you are obsessed with competition, as opposed to self defense. The fighters in the ring are GOOD foghters, who happen to have the strongest egos.

 

"And whats makes you believe that MMA fighters always assume they have an advantage? "

 

I'm not generalizing MMA fighters, what I stated was pertaining to you alone.

 

"But what if those people were certified "masters" in that given style? "

 

A "master" can be self proclaimed, and a master can be out of his prime. Not all traditional styles are the same. You said yourself that those who we call masters are simply better than us, not the best.

 

"Well, it would be no more difficult to grasp than to train say, in BJJ, Wrestling, and Muay Thai."

 

Grasping those three arts is no easy task, I do not argue that.

 

"Jack of all trades does not mean hes not proficient- it simply means that person is more of a freestyle fighter with no preference as to what phase of the fight they fight in. "

 

True, but such a phrase has a second part.

 

Evan Tanner's problem against the grappler then, is not his training, it is his personal mindset. If he was more aggressive, it wouldn't matter.

 

"traditional arts are a game, if that's the case. drilling with a cooperative partner, light contact sparring - even full contact - none of it is real, and is thus a game, correct? If you disagree, then explain what is more real about them. "

 

In a sense, yes. In light of your life being in immediate danger, yes. However training methods such as that are not directly used to boost the ego, nor manipulated to fill the pockets.

 

"you stated that masters don't compete against eachother"

 

Where?

 

"I disagree. especially in this day and age. actual physical MA training has little if anything to do with survival. We dont live in times where we are getting attacked daily. And even when we do, weapons are usually involved. We live in the time of the gun, and MA training doesn't help much against that. Not to mention that the majority of people out there will NEVER even get into an altercation after they reach adulthood. "

 

So you're saying that MAs are now strictly sport?

 

"perhaps his point is that their training methods are inferior."

 

Everyone trains in their own manner. To generalize that all TJJ schools exclude something, and are thus ineffective, is inaccurate.

[Treebranch]

I'm going to elaborate on a statement I made earlier in this post. I said, "There are things you can only understand by experiencing them." What I meant by that is you have to have the techniques we are learning done to you to really see that they are effective. Unfortunatly you will probably never know unless you seek it out. We ground fight but it is not the focus of our art. Our arts purpose is to control your balance, to take you where you are weakest whether you are standing, kneeling, or on the ground. We have strikes and kicks that are very effective, but most of all we take your balance so we can hurt you and you can't fight back. When you control someone's balance you control them. We rely on a fully commited attack, not a tag and punch match or anything of the sort. We rely on the fact that you have full intent on really doing us harm. We don't feel it's necessary to fight for pride, even if we are insulted. We only fight if our life or the life of our loved one's is threatened and there is nothing fair about the way we fight. We attack your mind and your body. These are the type of things you have to experience to know or to understand. If this sounds foriegn or strange to you, I apologize. This is the essence of a MA designed to protect life, not to display skill. There's a difference in the two and I am simply pointed it out. Thanks.

[Gumbi]

" It just so happens that the best fighters happen to be the ones who are also fighting in the ring. "

 

You don't know that. You're stating that because you don't know any good fighters outside of the ring, because you are obsessed with competition, as opposed to self defense. The fighters in the ring are GOOD foghters, who happen to have the strongest egos.

 

I certainly do know that- find me a fighter (who's not a cage fighter) that can beat Fedor Emilianenko, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Tito Ortiz, or Randy Couture

 

 

"But what if those people were certified "masters" in that given style? "

 

A "master" can be self proclaimed, and a master can be out of his prime. Not all traditional styles are the same. You said yourself that those who we call masters are simply better than us, not the best.

 

Supposing those masters were certified under the governing people of that style. As far as me calling someone who's simply better than you a master, it was meant to be a jab at the usage of the word- in other words, because a guy is labeled a "master" in say for instance, kung fu, many people automatically assume that, if he began to teach groundfighting, he would be a master in that aspect of the fight as well.

 

 

"Jack of all trades does not mean hes not proficient- it simply means that person is more of a freestyle fighter with no preference as to what phase of the fight they fight in. "

 

True, but such a phrase has a second part.

 

Evan Tanner's problem against the grappler then, is not his training, it is his personal mindset. If he was more aggressive, it wouldn't matter

 

Evan Tanners problem against a more skilled grappler is simply that- the person is more skilled in grappling than he is. Someone whos been training all their life in submission wrestling is NOT going to be outdone on the ground by someone who's merely crosstraining in it- the grappler has been fighting against the worlds best for too long and has too much skill for someone else who just picked it up to beat him at his own game. Much the same way that you're not going to see Mark Coleman KO Mirko Cro Cop on the feet (Kevin Randleman, yes). Fighters who come out of one style are usually the top of the food chain in that art, and they've trained in it for such a long time.

 

 

"you stated that masters don't compete against eachother"

 

Where?

 

I believe that was TreeBranches post

 

 

"perhaps his point is that their training methods are inferior."

 

Everyone trains in their own manner. To generalize that all TJJ schools exclude something, and are thus ineffective, is inaccurate.

 

If I were generalize techniques, perhaps that would be inaccurate. The bottom line is that no JJJ school had active randori on the same level that Judo or Jiu Jitsu did prior to the UFC events. Once again, we're not saying so much that they're ineffective as much as we're saying the other styles are MORE effective.

[GhostlySykanRyu]

Very good post treebranch, you're better at wording such things than I am.

 

"I certainly do know that- find me a fighter (who's not a cage fighter) that can beat Fedor Emilianenko, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Tito Ortiz, or Randy Couture "

 

That's the point, it would be just as difficult for me, especially in my small community. I'm sure I could find one with the skill to hold is own/trounce the inexperienced (by comparison) cage fighters...but finding one without humility would be near impossible.

 

"Supposing those masters were certified under the governing people of that style."

 

Which style of TJJ is this then? Not all styles fall under one organization, that would not be possible with the vast number of styles.

 

"Evan Tanners problem against a more skilled grappler is simply that- the person is more skilled in grappling than he is."

 

If he was more aggressive, it wouldn't necessarily come to grappling. If you're going to fight force with force, instead of using it to your own gain, you'd might as well do it to the best of your ability.

 

"The bottom line is that no JJJ school had active randori on the same level that Judo or Jiu Jitsu did prior to the UFC events"

 

But they did. You think that the vast amount of TJJ styles ALL changed their training methods because they saw a few other styles faring well in the ring? I doubt that more than half of the instructors even bother to watch the UFC. You really think that a person who's been training for 40 years in his art looks a a BJJ guy doing well and says "Oh my god! I've been doing it all wrong! All hail their style, we must conform to them! We are weaaaak.!"

 

"Once again, we're not saying so much that they're ineffective as much as we're saying the other styles are MORE effective."

 

Again, that is still inaccurate. You have no more to prove that one style is more effective than I do to prove the opposite. That's the point, there is no BETTER art. A simplified and condensed version of an art does not make it better than the original, it makes it easier, and it makes it quicker.

[Gumbi]

Very good post treebranch, you're better at wording such things than I am.

 

"I certainly do know that- find me a fighter (who's not a cage fighter) that can beat Fedor Emilianenko, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Tito Ortiz, or Randy Couture "

 

That's the point, it would be just as difficult for me, especially in my small community. I'm sure I could find one with the skill to hold is own/trounce the inexperienced (by comparison) cage fighters...but finding one without humility would be near impossible..

 

Finding one without humility? What does that mean? Are you suggesting that all cage fighters, by definition, are not humble people/arrogant?

 

 

"Supposing those masters were certified under the governing people of that style."

 

Which style of TJJ is this then? Not all styles fall under one organization, that would not be possible with the vast number of styles.

 

Not just TJJ, but the other styles as well and they dont need to be from just one organization- certified in multiple ones is just as well.

 

 

"Evan Tanners problem against a more skilled grappler is simply that- the person is more skilled in grappling than he is."

 

If he was more aggressive, it wouldn't necessarily come to grappling. If you're going to fight force with force, instead of using it to your own gain, you'd might as well do it to the best of your ability..

 

It wouldnt come to grappling? Grappling is NOT a style of combat, its a phase of it whether you like it or not. Thats like me saying that if Im aggressive enough there wont be any strikes thrown. If you're in a fight, you will see both strikes and grappling- thats what fights are. Besides, fighting with your heart is not neccesarily good, as you can run yourself into trouble by making mistakes- you have to fight with your head, not your heart.

"The bottom line is that no JJJ school had active randori on the same level that Judo or Jiu Jitsu did prior to the UFC events"

 

But they did. You think that the vast amount of TJJ styles ALL changed their training methods because they saw a few other styles faring well in the ring?

 

The intelligent ones did- they adopted and changed instead of holding on to the old traditions. The need for realism and realistic sparring in martial arts was realized during the first few UFC's (or if you want to go back further, when there were the Judo vs Ju Jitsu matches about 100 years ago).

 

 

I doubt that more than half of the instructors even bother to watch the UFC. You really think that a person who's been training for 40 years in his art looks a a BJJ guy doing well and says "Oh my god! I've been doing it all wrong! All hail their style, we must conform to them! We are weaaaak.!"

 

It might be a good idea if hes been training for 40 years and is unable to dominate someone of a different style. When the first UFC's came out, people thought that BJJ would be the end all in mixed martial arts and that nothing could beat it- that was until strikers learned how to sprawl and break out of clinches, and wrestlers started studying submissions to learn how to avoid them. Many BJJ fighters who had been doing nothing but BJJ for the past 20 years saw what was happening and said "gee, well this is a problem here- I guess we need to incorporate some striking into our training" and they did just that.

 

 

"Once again, we're not saying so much that they're ineffective as much as we're saying the other styles are MORE effective."

 

Again, that is still inaccurate. You have no more to prove that one style is more effective than I do to prove the opposite. That's the point, there is no BETTER art. A simplified and condensed version of an art does not make it better than the original, it makes it easier, and it makes it quicker.

 

sigh.......

 

I've been giving proof that strongly supports my opinion the entire time. Someone had this wild idea of getting numerous people of different styles together and having them fight each other to see which ones would win. It was a pretty direct way to figure this question out, but it got the job done, even though it hurt many people's feelings.

[GhostlySykanRyu]

"Finding one without humility? What does that mean? Are you suggesting that all cage fighters, by definition, are not humble people/arrogant? "

 

One who is humble will not display their skill in front of millions simply because they can, or to show up another style.

 

"It wouldnt come to grappling? Grappling is NOT a style of combat, its a phase of it whether you like it or not. Thats like me saying that if Im aggressive enough there wont be any strikes thrown. If you're in a fight, you will see both strikes and grappling- thats what fights are. Besides, fighting with your heart is not neccesarily good, as you can run yourself into trouble by making mistakes- you have to fight with your head, not your heart.

 

Again, you imply that we don't use grappling. Keep in mind where BJJ came from. You can try to break something down into phases, it doesn't matter. If a person is facing a grappler, and they are only skilled in stand-up, then they'd damn well better be able to avoid the clinch. If that person is adept and knows how to deal with a pure grappler, he can avoid the clinch. It's been done, and recently at that. Fighting with your head means you are thinking too much, thus hindering your actions.

 

Methinks this will go in circles as long as we allow the topic to go on...

[SevenStar]

"Jack of all trades does not mean hes not proficient- it simply means that person is more of a freestyle fighter with no preference as to what phase of the fight they fight in. "

 

True, but such a phrase has a second part.

 

now apply that to a traditional guy... strikes, forms, kicks, chin na, qi gong, nei gong, iron palm, iron body, numerous weapons... who's really the jack of all trades here? And of the things listed above, how many can a person TRULY master? The "jack of all trades, master of none" definitely applies to traditional guys as well, but many of them don't realize that.

 

 

In a sense, yes. In light of your life being in immediate danger, yes. However training methods such as that are not directly used to boost the ego, nor manipulated to fill the pockets.

 

doesn't matter = the training methods are far less than realistic. As for ego - MMA guys generally have their ego in check. If you talk to them in person, they are different. cockiness makes money. They fight professionally, and need to drum up an audience. To be honest, I've seen bigger egos out of traditional guys than any sport guys I've ever seen - getting your butt kicked keeps the ego in check. I know that i can go in class tomorrow and maul most of the guys in class. However, I also know that there are several who will do the same thing to me, and they do so on a regular basis. getting beaten is a very humbling thing.

 

However, I lose count of the number of times a traditional guy says "in a real fight, just kick em in the nuts" or something similar, as if it's that easy. I had one guy tell me that boxers - pro boxers - have no skill - "they just stand there and slug eachother". There is a pizza parlor near our school. We went in one day to get lunch (it was when the school was opening, and we were doing some work on the interior) the casheir said "hey, are you the guys from the MMA school?" to which we replied yes, and invited him to stop by sometime. He then told us that he didn't need to, because he would never get taken down, and that his time is better spent doing striking.

 

 

"you stated that masters don't compete against eachother"

 

Where?

 

looking back, it was angrymat, not you - my bad.

 

 

So you're saying that MAs are now strictly sport?

 

they are what you make them. What I am saying is that more than half of the people that train will never use what they learn.... traditional guys train for a possibility; sport guys train for an inevitability. traditional guys train for the assailant that they MIGHT run into - but likely won't - someday. sport guys train for the next opponent, as they will definitely have one.

[SevenStar]

One who is humble will not display their skill in front of millions simply because they can, or to show up another style.

 

you don't believe that...