Whats the Difference between Brazilian and Japanese Jujitsu?

[AngryMatt]

There is a happy medium that must be reached; being open to the new and being able to accept and use (or at least respect) the traditional ways.

 

You can argue on the effectiveness of any system...but you still won't change the mind of the practitioner of that art, because that person knows that those techniques work for him/her.

Amen, especially to that "respect for tradition" and I'd add there needs to be respect from the traditional guys to those who are into BJJ. I think I've done that, but if I have not, I'll be the first to man up and apologize for that.

[Gumbi]

Weakest point when the attacker might be hiding a knife in one hand? Weakest point when his buddy decides to stomp your face in? Weakest point is assuming your attacker is alone and unarmed? Weakest point is assuming the ground is like your padded dojo?

 

Once again, you're making the mistake of assuming that BJJ'er blindly advocate taking the fight to the ground when this is certainly not the case.

 

For knife attacks- if you want to disarm someone with a knife, you'll HAVE to engage in some sort of grappling to get it off them.

 

When his buddies try to stomp your face in- this is where BJJ and grappling arts in general are usefull to AVOID going to the ground in such a situation. I'll guarentee you that Im much more difficult to take down than someone who doesnt know how to grapple. I can use my clinch skills to break free and stay on my feet if I want. Perfect example- Chuck Liddel.

 

Assuming your attacker is alone and unarmed- fighting more than 1 opponent is a WHOLE new ballpark here and its no longer a fight, but getting jumped. Thats a completely different (and rather long) argument.

 

Assuming the ground is your padded dojo

 

How does the ground hurt me? Im the one whos comfortable there. The OTHER guy is the one who's getting slammed on the ground, not me. Brings me to a good point on the Gracies in Action when a karate instructor challenged the Gracie Academy and insisted that they fight on hard tile floor so "those grapplers wont be comfortable." Im sure they had different views when they suddenly found that they were the ones getting thrown to the ground.

 

And with all the talks about punching, clawing the face, stomping each others heads in, and biting people's ears off, do you really think a few scrapes on the ground are going to bother someone?

 

 

O.K. not once did I mention a marine or any such armed serviceman defeated a MMA fighter. I'm not even talking about a MMA fighter, I'm talking about you the practitioner, not the pro.

 

This was in response to your argument that someone will suddenly fight different under war conditions and different techniques will/wont work.

[Gumbi]

"Calling someone a "master" can be seen fit if they simply are better than you. He may be excelled in hand to hand (or any other part of combat for that matter) but that does not exactly mean hes a master at it. "

 

So by your definition, the Gracies are not masters of their art. They're simply better than you. Odd.

 

Thats not my definition, but rather the one most apparent when people are training in martial arts- they assume that someone who knows more than they do is a "master." This is more prevalent in grappling arts, simply because of the vast number of techniques available.

 

 

 

There is a happy medium that must be reached; being open to the new and being able to accept and use (or at least respect) the traditional ways.

 

The question that has to be asked is WHY- why must we respect the traditional ways? Most schools of martial arts do this for no other reason then the fact that they are traditions and their refusal to challenge tradition is what kept them from evolving and advancing their art.

[Gumbi]

When, in any BJJ training, have you worked with knives, bats or even strike combinations? I'm serious here.

 

Just because you train something doesnt mean its going to actually work. How often have you actually gouged out someone's eyes or bitten off chunks of flesh while they're trying their hardest to resist you?

And since when did sparring give you the edge all the time? Do you need to know how to take shots? Yeah. You have to learn what it feels like to GET HIT. That's extraordinarily important. But drilling technique is better than sparring and/or "scrimmaging." It's the case in every sport and I fail to see why it wouldn't be the same for BJJ.

 

Take the veterans of each sport and you'll notice everyone says the same thing- experience cant be taught. I can practice hitting a curve ball in baseball, because curveballs break a certain way. I can practice a pattern in football, because that pattern will always be the same. The only way to drill for a resisting opponent is to ACTUALLY have a resisting opponent in which case it becomes sparring.

 

Look at it this way- the sparring you see in class is the practice, and the tournaments are the "gametime."

 

 

Oh, and will you BJJ fanboys really stop with this JJJ -v- BJJ thing? When did you see one studying JJJ ever trash BJJ? I was pretty sure the couple guys here who train in Budo Taijitsu have said that BJJ is fantastic as a sport, works very well in competition and is effective in teachiing you to get your base.

 

Are you serious? You realize that you're insulting the style and the practitioners of BJJ with the statements you've made? Certain statements such as "BJJ is only good for sport" or "my style is too deadly for the cage" or "JJJ would beat BJJ with no rule restrictions."

 

What makes it more insulting is when every excuse is analyzed, examined, and explained only to have the other person completely cover their eyes and blind themselves to the truth.

 

The truth is that the training method that BJJ has is whats responsible for its success, as well as other styles that share that common training style (wrestling, sambo, Judo, boxing, muay thai). The truth is there is much more evidence supporting these styles under combat conditions than any other you can name.

[GhostlySykanRyu]

"The question that has to be asked is WHY- why must we respect the traditional ways? Most schools of martial arts do this for no other reason then the fact that they are traditions and their refusal to challenge tradition is what kept them from evolving and advancing their art."

 

Now you insult the MAs as a whole, and you're missing out on one of the key points of them...

 

You act as if people could not defend themselves before your holy Gracies tweaked an art...

 

"Just because you train something doesnt mean its going to actually work."

 

The same can be said for anything. Just because you train to clinch quickly and avoid being hit, doesn't mean that there isn't a boxer who can't nail you anyway. And save your "it's been proven" please, I've heard it already.

 

I do agree that sparring is important, and so I spar. Where do you get the idea that those who practice traditional arts cannot adapt and use their own training methods?

 

"Are you serious? You realize that you're insulting the style and the practitioners of BJJ with the statements you've made? "

 

You've spit in the face of the founders of the traditional arts (without them your BJJ would be nonexistant), from the fist Indian Monks that started to form the MAs, to Jigoro Kano. In the light of that insulting the Gracies would seem a minor matter.

 

"What makes it more insulting is when every excuse is analyzed, examined, and explained only to have the other person completely cover their eyes and blind themselves to the truth. "

 

My opinion is not necessarily the truth. Your opinion is not the truth. The truth is the truth, and is not always set in stone.

 

"The truth is that the training method that BJJ has is whats responsible for its success, as well as other styles that share that common training style (wrestling, sambo, Judo, boxing, muay thai). "

 

I agree fully...but training is key in EVERY art. Just because something may differ from your ways, doesn't mean it isn't effective.

 

"The truth is there is much more evidence supporting these styles under combat conditions than any other you can name."

 

Sure. By all means, a few decades of scuffles overshadows thousands of years of martial evolution and warfare. Yes, Brazilian Jujitsu has the best techniqiues EVER and the Gracies are gods among men. A striker will never EVER be able to defend against a grappler, even if he has a weapon. Traditionalists are idiots, and we should just forget where we came from. BJJ is the absolute peak of the martial arts and ONLY THAT should be used. There, I said it! Happy now?

 

...

[Treebranch]

AngryMatt I appreciate you bringing up those points. You know what it's better for us that they don't know what we are talking about.

[Gumbi]

 

You act as if people could not defend themselves before your holy Gracies tweaked an art...

 

Certainly not the case, but the Gracies had a breakthrough in martial arts that people like you refuse to accept or write it off as "not practical."

 

The same can be said for anything. Just because you train to clinch quickly and avoid being hit, doesn't mean that there isn't a boxer who can't nail you anyway. And save your "it's been proven" please, I've heard it already.

 

So, by agreeing that you're disagreeing with whats been proven, are you suggesting that your own opinion is wrong? Of course you're going to get hit when attempting to clinch, I never said you werent, but its much easier to force a clinch than it is to keep the distance.

 

 

 

You've spit in the face of the founders of the traditional arts (without them your BJJ would be nonexistant), from the fist Indian Monks that started to form the MAs, to Jigoro Kano. In the light of that insulting the Gracies would seem a minor matter.

 

Funny you mentioned Kano, they said he "spit in the face of the founders of traditional arts" when he introduced Judo and now here we have this great style of throwing.

 

As to WHY I ask why respect is important- its because martial arts are about FIGHTING PLAIN AND SIMPLE. They are NOT about discipline, or finding oneself, or becoming one with nature.

 

 

 

I agree fully...but training is key in EVERY art. Just because something may differ from your ways, doesn't mean it isn't effective.

 

Many style differ from "my ways" that I respect because they've proven themselves in the ring. Boxing, Muay Thai, and Judo have different mindsets than BJJ, as do Sambo, Wrestling, and Catch Wrestling and I've never questioned the quality of these styles.

 

"The truth is there is much more evidence supporting these styles under combat conditions than any other you can name."

 

 

 

Sure. By all means, a few decades of scuffles overshadows thousands of years of martial evolution and warfare.

 

Ah, see now lets analyze your VERY train of thought here- by this statement, you're saying that because its old, it MUST be good. THAT RIGHT there is the problem with martial arts. The Germans, French, and English tried rushing the trenches of WW I side by side because thats how it was done for hundreds of years. The Polish attacked the Nazi Blitzkrieg by sending out calvary on horseback because that was the way warfare was for thousands of years. Then someone comes along with this idea of mechanized warfare- but surely it wont work against these other battlefield strategies because they're "older."

[Treebranch]

Gumbi are saying the painters and sculptors of today better than the one's of the past. Can you find a more prolific artist today than Michelangelo. In the old days people lived their art out of survival, we do it for fun and pleasure. When you do something for a living it's alot different don't you think. Newer Arts are not better than older Arts in most cases. You don't seem to understand that in the old days "Warring States Period" Japan fighting was a way of life, not a sporting event. There were people with true life and death experience that have passed down their knowledge for those to learn from. BJJ didn't improve TJJ, they made a simpler version that serves it's purpose as a ring sport just like Kano did with Judo. I think we've hit on the same old argument about "Training Methods" which BJJ's training methods are good for it's specific context. The "Context" of TJJ is not for sports, so in turn they do not teach that way. I agree they should have "Randori" we do at my school. I hope you understand no one is bashing BJJ we are simply pointing out the fact that it is not a complete art, because it only covers one aspect of Combat.

[AngryMatt]

Yeah please do point out where I insulted BJJ. I said it was a great sport. Does that mean it won't work in a real situation? No it doesn't. It just means YOU AREN'T BEING TRAINED TO DEAL IN A REAL SITUATION. You're being trained to win, not survive.

 

Now JJJ you're being trained to survive and not to win. That's bad for competition because you have to throttle back and you're not in an environment you're comfortable with. Not that I'd be comfortable in a street fight situation since I have under three months experience in JJJ, but that's another story.

 

Besides guys, this "master -v- master" stuff is nonsense. True masters wouldn't be going at it with one another and I think we all know it.

 

As far as all the training goes, my sensei teaches randori to the more experienced guys and does plenty of demos of it. I have the bruises of being thrown into walls after I charge him to prove it.

 

And, of course, my classes are all free of charge. Very traditional stuff... all based on donations.

 

But Gumbi, you sit there and you lambaste JJJ and then have the gall to rip me for saying BJJ is more of a sport and not a complete art? Jesus. Even BJJ guys will admit it's not everything there is to combat. But they'd say that they'd rather get incredibly proficient at one aspect than be more all around.

 

Am I going to bash that? Hell no. And as far as respect goes, you need to learn to respect other arts not because you agree with them, but because you need to learn to be a MAN. Nothing to do with "Eastern philosophy" or any of that. I'm a Catholic through and through and dismiss everything as far as the religion goes. But I respect other people's choices in what art they choose because it's courteous and I'm a gentleman.

[rb]

That's just it, sport is one component of BJJ. You have stated in many posts that you just started and you don't know much about other martial arts-bjj is definitely one of them you don't understand.

 

When you take up bjj yeah you work on the ground. But you also focus on clinch takedowns, getting out of standing holds and how to transition to a dominant position on the ground. Does bjj handle all aspects well, no. That's why at the same school you'll most likely see guest instructors that teach wrestling, muay thai or straight up boxing.

 

It's literally choose your own adventure at a bjj school - you want to train mma, self defence or only grappling competition you can. However, even a grappler is going to pick up some self defence moves.

 

One thing that remains core to the sucess of bjj is constant live resistant practice and relatively small repetoire of techniques. This pertains to your comment about using martial arts in a real situation. A bjj practioner is going to have a handful of well drilled, stress tested techniques and this is why these people have a level of confidence in their system (may be seen as arrogance by others).