Whats the Difference between Brazilian and Japanese Jujitsu?

[Gumbi]

"Japanese Ju Jitsu also lacks any real general strategy. Kano described it as a "collection of tricks" to use in different situations."

 

Then Jigoro Kano faultered at some point, if that quote is true, then he just didn't get it

 

I can't speak for all styles of JJJ, but I can say that mine covers pretty much everything, ground grappling included. Much more than just a bag of tricks, Sykan Ryu was made for the street (based on the Danzan Ryu system). JJJ was made for war...I assure you it has practical application.

 

When Kano said that, he didnt imply that JJJ was ineffective, but just pointed out that it had no real overall strategy. Let me see if I elaborate a bit.

 

I've taken some Tai Jitsu classes and some of the techniques I've seen were a wristlock from a jab attempt and minor ground escapes. Since it teaches all aspects of a fight in one, you kinda become a jack of all trades, but master of none (similiar to MMA fighters who start off training in MMA gyms rather than having been a wrestler, Jiu Jitsu fighter, or boxer/kickboxer prior).

 

Now, a skilled Jiu Jitsu fighter often has a set strategy in mind- "I want to take my opponent down where he cant strike me effectively, improve my position to a more dominant one, and eventually work a submission." This is seen within the whole scoring system of a tournament. And I also only used this as an example- Ground and Pound and Sprawl and Brawl fighters have their strategies too.

 

But I've never seen emphasis for passing a guard or improving your position from a JJJ class- in fact I've seen many techniques that attempt to attack your opponent from inferior/unfavorable positions. Basically what Im saying is that JJJ does not have the same strategy that BJJ does.

And if you can't pull off a joint lock of some sort in a live situation, you're doing it wrong

Absolutely, I wasnt trying to imply anything else. What I WAS trying to imply is that these are physical skills like anything else and need to be practically applied to be learned.

 

You can practice ALL the techniques in the world as much as you want, but if you never try them on a resisting opponent, you'll never become proficient at them.

 

Let me see if I can give you an analogy of what Im trying to say

 

If I want to become a better hitter in baseball- I grab a bat and stand in my backyard and just swing the bat, its not going to go too far in terms of improving my batting skill in an actual baseball game (it helps some, but not a lot).

 

A better alternative would be to throw a ball up in the air and hit it, or hit the ball off a tee. Now we're getting physical resistance, Im actually aiming for something to hit rather than thin air (improving my hand eye coordination in the process) and its going to yield better results than if I simply did as mentioned before.

 

An even better alternative would be to have someone pitch the ball to you while you try to hit it- now you're working your resistance, hand eye, and timing speed.

 

Now its completely different for a baseball player to practice hitting curve balls in practice than in a game, because during practice he knows the pitcher is throwing a curve- in a game, each pitcher is going to have a different approach, different setups, and different styles that he'll have to adjust too. The more "game experience" he has, the better his chances.

 

I hope I wasnt too confusing

[AngryMatt]

It's important to be all around, which is why I take Taijitsu. But my sensei makes sure we know that in a real fight we are going to forget most of everything we know intellectually. That's why you drill specific things into muscle memory.

 

Be all around, but have a strength. Striking or grappling. Me? I'm a grappler. But I need to know the strikes because what happens if I can't get the guy on the ground the way I have it planned out? You need to be prepared for tons of eventualities. Why? So you can avoid dangerous positions and then work your style when the opportunity presents itself.

 

I'll be up front... someone proficient in BJJ is going to beat someone in JJJ in a competition. But put them on the street and it's a different story.

[Gumbi]

 

I'll be up front... someone proficient in BJJ is going to beat someone in JJJ in a competition. But put them on the street and it's a different story.

 

Do you mean grappling competition or MMA competition?

 

What do you think would be so dramatically different for a fight?

[SevenStar]

"Japanese Ju Jitsu also lacks any real general strategy. Kano described it as a "collection of tricks" to use in different situations."

 

Then Jigoro Kano faultered at some point, if that quote is true, then he just didn't get it

 

I can't speak for all styles of JJJ, but I can say that mine covers pretty much everything, ground grappling included. Much more than just a bag of tricks, Sykan Ryu was made for the street (based on the Danzan Ryu system). JJJ was made for war...I assure you it has practical application.

 

And if you can't pull off a joint lock of some sort in a live situation, you're doing it wrong

 

jjj was made for war... in the event that the swordsman lost his weapon... jjj was merely a backup plan. The downfall of them was that most jjj schools did not believe in sparring. This is why kano's guys massacred them in competition. They beat the stroungest, most well known jjj school of that time fairly easy. Mainly because of kano's use of randori.

 

as for ground grappling, it may be included, but if it's not a focus, then it's a weakness. Judo has striking, but striking is definitely NOT one of it's strong points.

[AngryMatt]

Do you mean grappling competition or MMA competition?

 

What do you think would be so dramatically different for a fight?

I meant in a fight that has rules regarding strike points. Put a master of jjj in a match against a master of bjj in a PRIDE fight and the jjj fighter would win.

 

Put them in the UFC cage? With striking gloves and rules regarding strike points, aside from the groin of course, and it gets far more even.

 

No bones about it, taijitsu is a war art... and many are hesitant to teach all aspects to folks around here. But my sensei teaches us everything, but we just happen to be a class of all beginners (less than a year in most cases) but when we get our green belts you can bet we'll be sparring full on.

 

You just don't see it often.

 

And it should be noted, that my sensei does train in randori. He's done demonstrations with our three or four members of our class used as the attackers. But remember that randori is just to get the multiple attackers confused and stumble over another so one person can be isolated and taken out.

[GhostlySykanRyu]

Gumbi-agreed, for the most part.

 

However the best fighters have no strategy in mind, they flow with their opponents.

 

To me, the "Jack of all trades and master of none" "cliche doesn't really apply in the martial arts. Sure, you have a vast array of techniques on your plate...that just means that you need to work a lot harder to get things down and use them in practical application.

 

"What I WAS trying to imply is that these are physical skills like anything else and need to be practically applied to be learned. "

 

Agreed.

[AngryMatt]

Yeah I don't think that anyone here is saying your art shouldn't be stress tested. I'm simply trying to stick up for my art and point out that in a few months I WILL be sparring.

 

I'm still a little too inexperienced to do so right now. If other schools aren't sparring, that's just idiotic. Nothing I know of the art, which again I'm not expert in, says you shouldn't be sparring. I just know from experience that learning technique comes from drilling. Finding out which techniques work the best in a real situation comes from live goes.

[Treebranch]

Look, it all depends on your training methods and your mind set. If your mindset is to win and submit someone, that can distract you in a real situation where it is not fair and other people may get involved. Also, don't compare yourself with the NHB fighting champions, because they live this stuff and will do well on the street against almost anyone. I'm talking about us, the practitioners, not the professionals. A combat MA such as Budo Taijutsu taught in the proper context will prepare better for life, period. Sport MA will prepare you better for competition, period. That's all there is to it. One was created over centuries of war and the other was created for competition. Don't worry you probably will never have fight a Budo Taijutsu master, nor would you want to. It's all about cheating, tricking you into positions that make you really vulnerable to extreme harm.

 

Kano knew Takamatsu Sensei and I don't think Kano would have agreed to death matches with the JJ guys. Kano's art was made during peace time and it is a very effective art in peace time, but is not made for the battle field. JJJ was designed for the battlefield so let's leave it at that.

[TJS]

Put a master of jjj in a match against a master of bjj in a PRIDE fight and the jjj fighter would win.

 

I would think then since pride in Based out of japan ..there might be one or two JJJ master who would step up and get a nice easy $300 thousand dollar pay day and do it...

 

there are plenty of BJJ world champions who have steped up and given it a shot in pride..Until a JJJ practicioner steps up and beats one of them dont expect anyone to take it seriously.

 

we have seen Thai boxers, wrestlers, boxers, BJJ practicioners, Judoka, adn sambo guys make a transition into MMA and do well...I have yet to see a JJJ practicioner do it yet...Not saying it wont happen but i'll remain skeptical until it does.

[Treebranch]

Isn't it interesting that we only trust things that have had media coverage and marketing behind it. Just because money is involved doesn't mean that is going to attract the Master of MA's to come out of the woodwork and fight. I think BJJ is good for what it is, a ground fighting art, but it is not a complete fighting art. Just because some of their practitioners fight in NHB tournaments doesn't mean it is any more effective in a real situation than Combat MA's. I would say real situations are far more unpredictable and weapons may come into play. BJJ has little to no weapons training and that is their weakness. Also seeing every confrontation as a competition is dangerous.