Whats the difference between Okinawan and Shokotan?

[pers]

Strange. I've had a Shotokan instructor tell me I was very accurate in my portrayal of Shotokan. In fact, most of the points I listed were taken from an email I sent to that instructor a while back.

 

What's more, I am talking about generalities of Shotokan as a style. What you describe is most certainly an exception rather than the rule. Again, not all Shotokan dojo fall into the category of what I described. But most of them do. It's not because they are taught by incompetent instructors. It's because they are teaching the characteristics of Shotokan. Can you do Shotokan and still be streetfight effective? Yes. In my opinion, there are more efficient ways of training and fighting that can achieve the same effect, that's all.

 

As far as my point about the muscles go, please re-read my post and consider what my message was. Of course you will use your muscles, but you're missing the thrust of what I was saying entirely. Since you have been training for over twenty years, you should be able to grasp the meaning I was trying to convey.

 

If you still disagree, please dispute my original post point-by-point. Simply saying my knowledge is limited won't convince me.

 

I see ! if that shotokan instructer agrees with you that shotokan stances are ineffective as you pointed out in #3 then one must question his background ! can you tell me how long have you actually trained in shotokan ,you might be a master in shurin ryu but you are telling me just because you have come across some watered down version of shotokan practiced in parrot fashion then you know all about it .If you haven't seen a good shotokan dojo or a master (as it is obvious you haven't ) it does not mean there aren't any .I have had the opportunity to train under some great masters of shotokan ,including Enoada ,kase ,shiraie ,Hazard,higgins ,kawasoe ,O'neil .if you have ever seen any of them doing karate you will instantly change your mind .especially the late Kase sensei chief of JKA france who was about 150 cm but weight like 100 kg! and in his sixties when I trained under him but moved with incredible speed and awsome power ,unbelievable from a man of his stature ,so after seeing these guys you are saying to me shotokan stances are ineffective ?! sorry my friend you had to see them !

 

what you are saying about full reverse punch 3/4 punch it is practiced in shotokan ,you see you are only talking about macdojo's ,yes as i explained im my first reply these guys never realy progress beyond brown belt or shodan ! cause the instructer is not capable !

 

basic shotokan training with full reverse punch is done ,just like the way oi zuki stepping punch is done ,every thing big ,same with front kick ,side and round house ,all done with exageration for a purpose muscle conditioning and body coordination to develop ! it is for training purpose! but one must progress past this stage onto the next level ,if they haven't don't blame shotokan ! . I can tell you what the normal fighting stance the way we do it is ,it is nothing like those deep heavily rooted front stance that you know of shotokan . backleg if fully bent and foot facing forward ,hill up the floor ,front leg is bent just enough to cover the top of the foot and the only point of contact with the ground is the ball of the foot .but those hard basic shotokan training will pay back hansomely to give dynamic action in swift movement.

 

Just remembered this ,the late kase sensie used to teach late mas oyama when he was doing shotokan in the 40s !

[Shorin Ryuu]

can you tell me how long have you actually trained in shotokan

I have no formal training Shotokan. I also have no qualms about admitting that. I have come across numerous Shotokan stylists, discussed this very question with many of them, done research and observed many of them (in video and in person). You could say this is a weakness in my argument. But there is a reason for me NOT training in Shotokan after seeing what I have seen. Again, it's not that you can't be effective or dynamic in Shotokan. It's merely that I view it as inefficient.

especially the late Kase sensei chief of JKA france who was about 150 cm but weight like 100 kg! and in his sixties when I trained under him but moved with incredible speed and awsome power ,unbelievable from a man of his stature ,so after seeing these guys you are saying to me shotokan stances are ineffective ?! sorry my friend you had to see them !

 

I believe you. I haven't seen them, but from what it sounds like, they were certainly great. Once again, it does sound like "hard" skill rather than efficiency. I daresay there have been quite a few Okinawan masters that have been able to do the same thing in their eighties as well.

what you are saying about full reverse punch 3/4 punch it is practiced in shotokan ,you see you are only talking about macdojo's ,yes as i explained im my first reply these guys never realy progress beyond brown belt or shodan ! cause the instructer is not capable !

 

I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly on this one, but it seems you are claiming that Shotokan does the 3/4 punch as well. If such was a systematic change, then that would make me surprised, but rather happy. Don't get me wrong. There's even Okinawan styles that teach it one way and then teach the 3/4 punch later. I've never seen the need for that distinction. What's more, I can't buy the explanation that every single Shotokan person I met has only trained under a crappy instructor.

basic shotokan training with full reverse punch is done ,just like the way oi zuki stepping punch is done ,every thing big ,same with front kick ,side and round house ,all done with exageration for a purpose muscle conditioning and body coordination to develop ! it is for training purpose! but one must progress past this stage onto the next level ,if they haven't don't blame shotokan ! . I can tell you what the normal fighting stance the way we do it is ,it is nothing like those deep heavily rooted front stance that you know of shotokan . backleg if fully bent and foot facing forward ,hill up the floor ,front leg is bent just enough to cover the top of the foot and the only point of contact with the ground is the ball of the foot .but those hard basic shotokan training will pay back hansomely to give dynamic action in swift movement.

 

Apparently, you didn't quite grasp my point. I understand the difference between "training stances" and "practical stances". Whenever I've seen Shotokan kata, they are always done in "training stances". My argument is "train how you fight, fight how you train". In Okinawan kata, you can fight using the same stances in kata, which I feel is a fundamental difference between Okinawan styles and Shotokan. You keep using the words "dynamic" and "strong" to describe Shotokan. You'll see in my original post that I pretty much used the same adjectives. The reason why any "training stance" stresses the muscles is because at it's very foundation, it is structurally inefficient. Herein lies the crux of the argument. All the benefits you describe are muscular. Muscle can equal power and be quite destructive. I train my muscles as well. But when it comes to fighting, I train to be the most efficient as possible. Muscle is only an added benefit, not the focus of my training. The same goes for application. Muscle is not the foundation of my technique, only a supplement, if needed. Training in the manner you describe, muscle is more the foundation. Read that post I linked to on punching. Some of that describes that more in detail (and that is just one segment of the whole punching aspect).

 

 

 

Just remembered this ,the late kase sensie used to teach late mas oyama when he was doing shotokan in the 40s !

 

Exactly. Many of my criticisms of Shotokan are also the same criticisms I hold of Kyokushin. I think Kyokushin may have less of these faults, but I think most Kyokushin practitioners did not receive or understand all the things that Mas Oyama did, especially regarding energy in stance and application.

 

While you seem to have addressed only one or two of my points (unsatisfactorily, in my opinion), you didn't answer the others. We might just have to "agree to disagree". My position still stands.

[pers]

b="Shorin Ryuu

 

I have no formal training Shotokan. I also have no qualms about admitting that. I have come across numerous Shotokan stylists, discussed this very question with many of them, done research and observed many of them (in video and in person). You could say this is a weakness in my argument. But there is a reason for me NOT training in Shotokan after seeing what I have seen. Again, it's not that you can't be effective or dynamic in Shotokan. It's merely that I view it as inefficient.

 

 

If you haven't trained in shotokan under a bonofied instructer then I am sorry to say I can not really hold a debate with you as your experience is only from what you heard from others who are stuck at brown belt level (in reality )

 

what you are saying about full reverse punch 3/4 punch it is practiced in shotokan ,you see you are only talking about macdojo's ,yes as i explained im my first reply these guys never realy progress beyond brown belt or shodan ! cause the instructer is not capable !

 

I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly on this one, but it seems you are claiming that Shotokan does the 3/4 punch as well. If such was a systematic change, then that would make me surprised, but rather happy. Don't get me wrong. There's even Okinawan styles that teach it one way and then teach the 3/4 punch later. I've never seen the need for that distinction. What's more, I can't buy the explanation that every single Shotokan person I met has only trained under a crappy instructor.

 

 

It is perhaps similar to when you start to learn read and write .If you know what I mean !

 

Apparently, you didn't quite grasp my point. I understand the difference between "training stances" and "practical stances". Whenever I've seen Shotokan kata, they are always done in "training stances". My argument is "train how you fight, fight how you train

 

 

Well you see ,the diferrence is your experience in shotokan is with those

 

who have never progressed to the next stage and you think thats it !

 

If I ever reside in your town and find out that shotokan dojos are exactly the way you describe then i would happily come and train in shurin ryu or any other style that is taught by a good instructer !

 

When you see two of our senior members of my club fighting ,you would not be able to diferrentite them from a street fight and stance ,do I make sense ? is this the shotokan you have come across ?

 

 

While you seem to have addressed only one or two of my points (unsatisfactorily, in my opinion), you didn't answer the others. We might just have to "agree to disagree". My position still stands.

 

I think I covered most of your points ,you are saying shotokan is inefficent ,rigid deadlock stances that don't allow you to move fast ,lack of indepth training ,concept of blocking wrong ,no grappling or pressure points ?

 

And I am saying to you that the information given to you is wrong ! you can find all that in a shotokan club run by a credible instructer ,not a desperate dan ! we do age uke (rising block ) as a stike just to give you an example ,in all 27 katas of shotokan you can find all the concepts you refer to as lacking in shotokan ,providing a knowlegable instructer can show and teach you ,

 

you are entitled to hold your position

 

,but this is the subject that you have no personal experience with .

 

I recommend to you ,should you wish to find out, to get hold of the video or dvd of JKA 1987 nationals ,is one of the best and is avaiable from shotokan karate magazine ,it may give you an idea of what I am taliking about.

 

it is quite amazing that some one with no personal experience of shotokan is telling us about shotokan ,don't you think you are out of your place ?

 

Since you live in California ,why not go along to one of Nishiyama sensei's seminars or classes and find out where you are wrong ,I am sure killer miller would be to happy to help you.

 

if you ever come to England ,let me know and I will quickly change your point of view by taking you to a proper shotokan dojo !

Edited March 5, 2005 by pers

[Shorin Ryuu]

Well you see ,the diferrence is your experience in shotokan is with those

 

who have never progressed to the next stage and you think thats it !

 

If I ever reside in your town and find out that shotokan dojos are exactly the way you describe then i would happily come and train in shurin ryu or any other style that is taught by a good instructer !

My experience of Shotokan isn't limited to one town. I've met people who practiced shotokan in my hometown (high school) as well as from all over the country (college). I've also met some where I am as well as all over the country again (grad school). Being in the military, I have the opportunity to travel quite, quite frequently. Since it's me, the topic of martial arts always comes up, so I've met a very wide selection of Shotokan stylists.

When you see two of our senior members of my club fighting ,you would not be able to diferrentite them from a street fight and stance ,do I make sense ? is this the shotokan you have come across ?

 

So you're saying the kata they perform in their dojo or at tournaments is in the same (practical?) stances they fight in? I would actually like to see this as a widespread case. In most cases, it is either the same (where the stances are both energy in terms of energy) or different (fighting stances are different from kata). You also have to keep in mind that an energy dead-locked stance also doesn't have to be deep, either...

I think I covered most of your points ,you are saying shotokan is inefficent ,rigid deadlock stances that don't allow you to move fast ,lack of indepth training ,concept of blocking wrong ,no grappling or pressure points ?

 

Again, you're missing my point here. Stance transition relying more upon muscle power can be fast. No, it can be very fast. But biomechanical stances will always be much more fluid and efficient.

 

So where is your explanation about the grappling and pressure points? I haven't seen it yet. Instead, I've seen you write posts in the past such as these:

I just started taking Shotokan it is nice so far.

 

.. I don't know the Shotokan katas yet but I similarity in movements. Which is not surpising as I have read that Shotokan came from Shuri-Te

 

From my studying sad to say I have noticed that there was no grappling in Shotokan that I can see so far.

 

Dear friend ,good luck with your training ,there are grappling techniques in shotokan katas which you will come across ,first one I can think of is in heian sandan

 

 

I did a grappling application with my beginners class on saturday using the opening sequence of Heian Nidan - that bit of it where you have both arms raised, then crossed then one outstretched punching.

 

The 'crossing arms' can be a useful grappling technique, for both stand up and ground. There's also other areas in H. Nidan that can have grappling applications.

 

Not saying you are wrong but we learned that these movement as block and punch ,because of the speed this aplication in hein nidan ,we have learned that the slow movement in the kata where you apply tention are the grappling ones ,like the opening move of sochin .

 

First of all, I don't usually dig out a person's past posts, since many times as I continue to learn, my posts from a half-year ago or more may not even apply to how I view things. However, these posts were written a little more than a month ago in a Shotokan thread I revisted for a reality check.

 

Secondly, your very answer to this belies the difference. An Okinawan karateka would have answered that there is grappling in nearly every move of every kata. This is quite a marked difference than your answer. Also, when you state that "slow movement in the kata where you apply tention [sic] are the grappling ones", that shows the difference as well. Okinawan kata does not do such things, since nearly every single move would have to be done very slowly and with tension. The fact that there is a difference in speed like that points to a lack of depth in analysis. There isn't an established speed or tempo for kata (and I'm sure you realize this, so I'm not accusing you of saying that), but framing it in the way you did makes it sound suspect in terms of this discussion. Of course there is grappling in Shotokan, but the depth and level of it is often lacking.

 

I recommend to you ,should you wish to find out, to get hold of the video or dvd of JKA 1987 nationals ,is one of the best and is avaiable from shotokan karate magazine ,it may give you an idea of what I am taliking about.

 

No matter what I say, apparently you will just repeat yourself. I may even look into getting that video, provided it isn't too much money. But this will be my last post in this thread. I'll let you have the last word.

[pers]

 

My experience of Shotokan isn't limited to one town. I've met people who practiced shotokan in my hometown (high school) as well as from all over the country (college). I've also met some where I am as well as all over the country again (grad school). Being in the military, I have the opportunity to travel quite, quite frequently. Since it's me, the topic of martial arts always comes up, so I've met a very wide selection of Shotokan stylists.

 

 

your experience with shotokan is limited to talk ,you have not done shotokan ,so your point of view in my eyes are not valid.

 

 

So you're saying the kata they perform in their dojo or at tournaments is in the same (practical?) stances they fight in? I would actually like to see this as a widespread case. In most cases, it is either the same (where the stances are both energy in terms of energy) or different (fighting stances are different from kata). You also have to keep in mind that an energy dead-locked stance also doesn't have to be deep, either...

 

 

this is what you don't understand ,stances in basic form are for training to condition the body ,if you haven't done this ,you will not understand ,I have no knowledge of shurin ryu ,so I don't know your status .but you seem to think you know it all about a system you never worked in !

 

I think I covered most of your points ,you are saying shotokan is inefficent ,rigid deadlock stances that don't allow you to move fast ,lack of indepth training ,concept of blocking wrong ,no grappling or pressure points ?

 

Again, you're missing my point here. Stance transition relying more upon muscle power can be fast. No, it can be very fast. But biomechanical stances will always be much more fluid and efficient.

 

So where is your explanation about the grappling and pressure points? I haven't seen it yet. Instead, I've seen you write posts in the past such as these:

 

 

Muscle power is just one factor in delivering a good technique,not all ,grappling techniques and pressure points are also there ,even a shoto uke can be a strike or grappling ,depending on the circumstances.

 

 

Dear friend ,good luck with your training ,there are grappling techniques in shotokan katas which you will come across ,first one I can think of is in heian sandan

 

]

 

Not saying you are wrong but we learned that these movement as block and punch ,because of the speed this aplication in hein nidan ,we have learned that the slow movement in the kata where you apply tention are the grappling ones ,like the opening move of sochin .

 

well I can not talk about heian nidan as you have no idea of it .

 

First of all, I don't usually dig out a person's past posts, since many times as I continue to learn, my posts from a half-year ago or more may not even apply to how I view things. However, these posts were written a little more than a month ago in a Shotokan thread I revisted for a reality check.

 

 

You went to great lenghts to find some thing to stand on !but I have the same opinion,see my say about shotouke further up.

 

 

 

Secondly, your very answer to this belies the difference. An Okinawan karateka would have answered that there is grappling in nearly every move of every kata. This is quite a marked difference than your answer. Also, when you state that "slow movement in the kata where you apply tention [sic] are the grappling ones", that shows the difference as well. Okinawan kata does not do such things, since nearly every single move would have to be done very slowly and with tension. The fact that there is a difference in speed like that points to a lack of depth in analysis. There isn't an established speed or tempo for kata (and I'm sure you realize this, so I'm not accusing you of saying that), but framing it in the way you did makes it sound suspect in terms of this discussion. Of course there is grappling in Shotokan, but the depth and level of it is often lacking.

 

 

Yes I am not okinawan ,well spotted !! and I learned that slow movement in kata(shotokan) done with tension are grappling (holding the opponent )

 

It is amazing that you claim the lack of depth in analysis about some thing you have no personal experience with ,but you think you have indepth knowledge of shotokan without spending an hour of training in shotokan !! very mature !

 

No matter what I say, apparently you will just repeat yourself. I may even look into getting that video, provided it isn't too much money. But this will be my last post in this thread. I'll let you have the last word.

 

 

Who are these masters of shotokan that you claim to have met and they all agree with you that shotokan is inefficient ?! you better take them to your shurin ryu school and teach them your efficient and effective system !

 

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Wow pers *passing him/her a chill pill*..let's try to have a nice, civil conversation/discussionb here please. Shorin Ryuu isn't attacking Shotokan in as much as he's pointing out obvious differences in approach to the same objective.

 

Perhaps I can shed a bit of a different approach to what Shorin Ryuu is saying, which I totally agree with.

 

I have had the opportunity to train with, and teach the local shotokan class a few times, and have observed it many times. The biggest thing that I notice in the way of differences between shotokan and shorin ryu are that shotokan tends to "muscle" techniques and use raw strength and power to accomplish their goal of striking or controlling their opponent. The key word here is muscle...aka strength and power.

 

Shorin Ryu's power comes not from over powering with muscle and strength, but rather with technique, speed and finesse. Strength is all and good if you're stronger than your opponent, but what if you're a 5', 90lb woman against a 6'4" 250lb man? Is she going to be able to out power/muscle him? Probably not.

 

In Shorin Ryu, and most other Okinawan systems that I've seen and studied, she would still have a good chance of successfully defending herself using her speed and good technique rather than just blasting in and trying to overcome her opponent.

 

To give you an example...the late Master Yuichi Kuda back in 1978 came and trained with our class for 3 weeks. I am 6'6" tall, and at that point, weighed around 220lbs. Slim, but in very good shape. Sensei Kuda was about 5'4" tall and maybe 150lbs. Quite a physical difference.

 

Sensei Kuda asked me to throw a kick of my chosing at him as fast as I could. He stressed that he wanted me to make hard contact with him and not pull it at all. Well, this was just a day or two after Sensei Kuda had arrived and I had not seen him do anything to this point. I launched a spinning back kick...which I felt was my fastest and strongest hitting kick to a stationary target. Sensei Kuda was just standing there like he was waiting for a bus...feet about shoulder width apart, hands down at his side..no obvious tension or prepardedness in his demeaner at all. Basically, Sensei Kuda looked like he could have been waiting for a bus at the bus stop.

 

Long story short, the next thing I knew after throwing my kick, was that I was face down on the floor, my kicking leg was being securely held by Sensei Kuda, and his foot was in the back of my neck and I could feel my vertibra stretching...and could imagine that with one good tug on my extended leg, my neck would have snapped. At that moment, I couldn't figure out how he did that to me so easily...but then he taught us that technique. Here was a man twice my age, half my physical size..and he left in my mind no doubt that with little effort on his part, he would have killed me quite easily.

 

I was physically stronger than Sensei Kuda and much larger than he was, but his technique was far superior to mine and he could overcome a larger, stronger opponent quite easily. This is the premise of Shorin Ryu karate. Not overpowering by sheer power, but winning through better techique.

 

Does this help clarify what Shorin Ryuu is getting at a bit? Or did I make it even worse?

[pers]

Wow pers *passing him/her a chill pill*..let's try to have a nice, civil conversation/discussionb here please. Shorin Ryuu isn't attacking Shotokan in as much as he's pointing out obvious differences in approach to the same objective.

 

Perhaps I can shed a bit of a different approach to what Shorin Ryuu is saying, which I totally agree with.

 

I have had the opportunity to train with, and teach the local shotokan class a few times, and have observed it many times. The biggest thing that I notice in the way of differences between shotokan and shorin ryu are that shotokan tends to "muscle" techniques and use raw strength and power to accomplish their goal of striking or controlling their opponent. The key word here is muscle...aka strength and power.

 

Shorin Ryu's power comes not from over powering with muscle and strength, but rather with technique, speed and finesse. Strength is all and good if you're stronger than your opponent, but what if you're a 5', 90lb woman against a 6'4" 250lb man? Is she going to be able to out power/muscle him? Probably not.

 

In Shorin Ryu, and most other Okinawan systems that I've seen and studied, she would still have a good chance of successfully defending herself using her speed and good technique rather than just blasting in and trying to overcome her opponent.

 

To give you an example...the late Master Yuichi Kuda back in 1978 came and trained with our class for 3 weeks. I am 6'6" tall, and at that point, weighed around 220lbs. Slim, but in very good shape. Sensei Kuda was about 5'4" tall and maybe 150lbs. Quite a physical difference.

 

Sensei Kuda asked me to throw a kick of my chosing at him as fast as I could. He stressed that he wanted me to make hard contact with him and not pull it at all. Well, this was just a day or two after Sensei Kuda had arrived and I had not seen him do anything to this point. I launched a spinning back kick...which I felt was my fastest and strongest hitting kick to a stationary target. Sensei Kuda was just standing there like he was waiting for a bus...feet about shoulder width apart, hands down at his side..no obvious tension or prepardedness in his demeaner at all. Basically, Sensei Kuda looked like he could have been waiting for a bus at the bus stop.

 

Long story short, the next thing I knew after throwing my kick, was that I was face down on the floor, my kicking leg was being securely held by Sensei Kuda, and his foot was in the back of my neck and I could feel my vertibra stretching...and could imagine that with one good tug on my extended leg, my neck would have snapped. At that moment, I couldn't figure out how he did that to me so easily...but then he taught us that technique. Here was a man twice my age, half my physical size..and he left in my mind no doubt that with little effort on his part, he would have killed me quite easily.

 

I was physically stronger than Sensei Kuda and much larger than he was, but his technique was far superior to mine and he could overcome a larger, stronger opponent quite easily. This is the premise of Shorin Ryu karate. Not overpowering by sheer power, but winning through better techique.

 

Does this help clarify what Shorin Ryuu is getting at a bit? Or did I make it even worse?

 

Thankyou for your mature post ,what you are describing from shorinryu is exactly the same concept that I have learned in shotokan .

 

relax status ,speed and power ,the only way that a small person can overcome with superior technique .

 

I am 186 cm and weight about 100kg ,my sensie is much smaller than me . but more or less I experience the same thing you had with sensei Kuda .I can lift things much heavier than my sensie but I don't have his dynamic strenght and speed .shotokan done properly is about the perfection of technique thus allowing some one with less physical strenght over come a much more physically stronger opponent.I think I have explained about it in another thread earlier(shorinryu can dig it out and see ! )

 

what I was saying to shorinryu is that ,but he is saying to me with 20 years of shotokan training that shotokan is inefficient ,rigid ,no indepth training and ineffective and rely on muscle strenght ! without spending any time in a good shotokan dojo !

 

This dilema includes other styles of karate taught by micky mouse instructer in macdojos who are purely doing it for money and don't have much to offer apart from flashy diplomas and badges to please students .

 

of course I get upset from this attitude towards my style as some one with limited knowledge and working on pure speculation is holding a debate with me and although I replied his critics ,he is still saying to me that you have not done what you say you have in shotokan ,because he spoke to some ? shotokan instructer and therefore He knows what shotokan is !

 

by the way the stance you mentioned by Kuda sensei as if he was waiting for the bus is what we are taught when we do basic one attack kumite.

 

legs wide as shoulders .knees slightly bend ,relax with no tension ,ready to go! when we punch ,there is only a slight tension in your fist ,but no tension in the arms and forearms .Does this sound familier to you ?

 

Basic stances and moving between them is an aid to condition your body to move with speed .

 

from 1985 to 1987 I had to join the local university club as my time table would not allow me to train in the club I wanted to .Instruction was limited and not that good (looking back now) grading was easy pizzy ! I got the brown belt and then I could train in the club I wanted to .but surprse ,surprise ! my level in that club was like a yellow belt not brown !

 

I spent the next 9 years ,until a year after I graded nidan ,doing both the basic and then brown & black belt classes .so it took me 5 years from brown to shodan ! because I had to first forget what I was taught before and learn the basics correctly ! basic training in shotokan as my sensei says is like paying tax ! once you learn to attack from a basic one attack kumite with speed ,then attacking in free form is like running on sand and running track ! do you see my point ?

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Before I get into this, I want to make sure that you understand that I am not supporting Shorin Ryuu's side of this discussion purely because he and I share the same roots in what we train in. Shorin Ryuu has been in the arts I believe for 6 years and is a VERY serious history student of all, or many of the arts and has a far greater knowledge of many facets of the art we study than I do. From his previous posts over the months, he has gained my respect as an intelligent and knowledgable man that seeks the truth and has far more knowlege of many of the martial arts than his time in the arts would dictate. I believe that most long time members of this forum would agree with this.

what I was saying to shorinryu is that ,but he is saying to me with 20 years of shotokan training that shotokan is inefficient ,rigid ,no indepth training and ineffective and rely on muscle strenght ! without spending any time in a good shotokan dojo !

 

I'll be the first to admit that for myself, my exposure to shotokan is limited to a local dojo that I have trained in at their invitation and helped them with many of their techniques (grabbing and weapons defense mostly) that they felt they were falling short in. The other shotokan dojo I worked at was in Lowenstoft, UK back in 2000 when I was there for a month visiting a friend. In both instances, I did...IMHO..find that shotokan was indeed inefficient in their movements of both kata and self-defense and very rigid in their stances and movements from one position to another in kata and self-defense techniques. These were my observations and opinions. As for no indepth training and ineffective, I can't really state an opinion on that other than I believe that they could be considerably MORE effective in what they do.

This dilema includes other styles of karate taught by micky mouse instructer in macdojos who are purely doing it for money and don't have much to offer apart from flashy diplomas and badges to please students .

 

As in any martial art, you have good instructors, and bad. I personally don't believe that the local shotokan sensei and the one I worked with in the UK were bad instructors, as they were very similar in what they were doing, how they did it and the words that came out of the sensei's mouths to their students. The logical conclusion I would make is that they both were taught along the same lines, and that they were teaching shotokan accurately as they were taught. Yes, perhaps they both had bad instructors themselves and are passing on that bad training to their students. It happens unfortunately.

of course I get upset from this attitude towards my style as some one with limited knowledge and working on pure speculation is holding a debate with me and although I replied his critics ,he is still saying to me that you have not done what you say you have in shotokan ,because he spoke to some ? shotokan instructer and therefore He knows what shotokan is !

 

We are all products of our experiences. If you have nothing but negative experiences with something, you will garner a negative viewpoint of that "something". I can't say my experiences with shotokan are negative, just different..and IMO, not what I would consider "up to snuff"..or as good as they could be. But remember..this has been my experience with shotokan, and also Shorin Ryuu's experiences. How would we think any differently?

 

You could come into my dojo and think to youself..."Man, these people have weak stances. Look at that! They have their hands relaxed, knees are bent but the stance is VERY upright and high...they are so weak!" And you know what...in your experience, that would be an understandable response and way of thinking. What we do, and how we do it would be wrong in your opinion...and that's OK. But one thing that you will notice in my school, and in this system in general, we practice what we preach. We don't teach one thing, then expect you to do something else in real life..which is what I believe Shorin Ryuu is getting at here. We teach and practice more natural stances, whereas shotokan teaches low strong stances, but fights with higher natural stances. Thus the conflict here. Like I said...you're not wrong...just different...and to us, that is wrong.

by the way the stance you mentioned by Kuda sensei as if he was waiting for the bus is what we are taught when we do basic one attack kumite.

 

legs wide as shoulders .knees slightly bend ,relax with no tension ,ready to go! when we punch ,there is only a slight tension in your fist ,but no tension in the arms and forearms .Does this sound familier to you ?

 

Yes, this is what I call our natural stance. My goal is to have my students in a real fight, use this stance. It's non-threatening, yet you can be totally prepared for an attack.

Basic stances and moving between them is an aid to condition your body to move with speed .

 

Yes, I understand this. But as Shorin Ryuu stated, and I agree with this..you will do in a real fight what you train to do in the dojo. There are a multitude of training practices to strengthen your body, and I feel that teaching your body to use those exercises in kata and such is a bad habit to get into.

[pers]

Before I get into this, I want to make sure that you understand that I am not supporting Shorin Ryuu's side of this discussion purely because he and I share the same roots in what we train in. Shorin Ryuu has been in the arts I believe for 6 years and is a VERY serious history student of all, or many of the arts and has a far greater knowledge of many facets of the art we study than I do.

 

I'll be the first to admit that for myself, my exposure to shotokan is limited to a local dojo that I have trained in at their invitation and helped them with many of their techniques (grabbing and weapons defense mostly) that they felt they were falling short in..

 

Yes, this is what I call our natural stance. My goal is to have my students in a real fight, use this stance. It's non-threatening, yet you can be totally prepared for an attack.

Basic stances and moving between them is an aid to condition your body to move with speed .

 

Yes, I understand this. But as Shorin Ryuu stated, and I agree with this..you will do in a real fight what you train to do in the dojo. There are a multitude of training practices to strengthen your body, and I feel that teaching your body to use those exercises in kata and such is a bad habit to get into.

 

6 years of training in shorin ryu and all this talk ?

 

In that case ,I rest my case and let you get on with it ! but you reply to my statement on basic stance and say yes ,I understand this but .... !

 

[Shorinryu Sensei]

I don't want to turn this into a "Defending Shorin Ryuu" thread, so I will just recommend that you search for posts by him and make up yoru own opinion of his knowledge by his posts. Personally, he impresses the heck out of me on a constant basis. If he doesn't impress you, then you're entitled to your opinion.

 

I see no reason to continue to post on this thread either.