Whats the difference between Okinawan and Shokotan?

[brickman]

As far as punches go.....I have taken basically three different styles of karate in almost 19 years. Those styles are Shotokan, Shito-ryu and Shorin-ryu. Shito-ryu was taught to me by a 6th degree here in the states who is Japanese and is pretty good. He hated me so whenever he felt the need to demonstrate a punch he would use me and hit me very hard....it hurt more than the previous Shotokan guy. BUT....when I started training with Shorin-ryu.....WOW. You have never experienced a punch like this Okinawan guy can give you. He has explained to many people over the years what Shotokan does "wrong" and punching is one of the concepts....see Shorin's point above about energy and biomechanics. Also, as he stated above there are many angles you can hit the human body...and according to the Shorin-ryu "mantra" none of them consist of a corkscrew effect....it is not the turning of the punch that causes pain as much as the amount of energy you create when you hit...again refer to Shorin's very long and well written post. Have any of you ever hit the Makiwara as hard as you can with the full "corkscrew" punch? I am not saying every punch we throw in Shorin-ryu is 3/4 or less....but we only throw the full punch when we teach beginners so they dont hurt each other.

[shotochem]

Hi Brickman,

 

If you have ever been on the recieving end of a full Shotokan reverse

 

punch done properly by a more advanced practicioner you will remember it.

 

The true power of the reverse punch is the full useage of the hips. When you employ the proper hip rotation to the punch the power is increased. As for one style hiting with a harder ounch than the other,

 

IMO, it's hard to quantify. If you are hit by three different people even of the same style they will all feel differently. I've seen shotokan guys who can't punch as well as TKD guys who hit like a ton of bricks. I don't believe that either punching method is superior to the other it's just a matter of making it work for you.

[brickman]

I respectfully disagree....I refer to the other Shorinryu post above about biomechanics....I will agree about different practioners, but alot of that has to do with who trained them.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

OK...guess it's time to add my $.02 worth here.

Hi Brickman,

 

If you have ever been on the recieving end of a full Shotokan reverse

 

punch done properly by a more advanced practicioner you will remember it. The true power of the reverse punch is the full useage of the hips. When you employ the proper hip rotation to the punch the power is increased.

 

Of this, I have no doubt. BUT...are you going to be able to throw this Shotokan hip into it punch...totally committing your entire body into the technique...into a moving, dodging, weaving and non-stationary target? Doubtful. Yes, it's a powerful punch with the eintire body and hip rotating thrown into it, but you're likely not going to be able to use it that way unless the guy you're fighting stands there like a post and says "Hit me".

 

So, if you can't expect to use the technique realistically, what good is it other than for kata?

[I-Self]

I started out in Shorinkan in the Philippines. We had a Shodan in our class, he was the sempai or assistant intructor, and he had trained in a NYC Shotokan dojo. He was fast and extremely strong. I asked him why he didn't just stay with Shotokan, as there was a great dojo in Angeles City where we were at. He said that actually Kobayashi (Shorinkan) was very similar to the Shotokan he had learned in the states -BUT- we had more grappling, better kobudo, more circular principles, more of a 50/50 feel (hard/soft) and the training in Shorin had taught him to be more relaxed and as a result faster, stronger, more efficient and just plain better. He said that Shotokan and Shorinkan, both Itosu-Ha, had similarities and at the same time so many more differences. He was stuck on Shorin from then on out. A shout out to Julio if you're reading this.

 

I feel that the "KarateJutsu" karate that Funakoshi did was akin to the Kobayashi Shorin that Chibana did. Funakoshi's later books detail the reasons for the change, one of which was to make the "barbaric, brutal" tode of his youth into a kinder and gentler animal more fit for the more "modernized" Japanese culture and mindset. It was a selling decision, an attempt to make karate palatable to the Japanese masses.

 

I'm currently a Nidan in Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu. The differences between this form of Shorin and Shorinkan are probably just as striking as the differences between Shotokan and the Shorin Ryuha. Soken left in the 20's and returned after the advent and changes to his beloved Shuri Te. Therefore, his karate was still very much suidi or tode. Remember Itosu's intent was not to create a fighting karate, but a P.E. karate that would benefit "the future soldiers of the Japanese Empire". Funakoshi was only doing what his sensei wanted him to do. We can thank him for being a true tode stylist who understood how to keep Okinawa Te alive. Regardless of the schoolboy intent of gendai budo, without his contributions this forum would probably not even exist.

 

If you want to learn karate beyond the journeyman level, then go find a good Shorin, Uechi, Isshin or Goju Ryu dojo. If you're satisfied with Shotokan or another Japanese style then forget about it. Just keep doing "you'". It's not all equal, but it is similar.

[shotochem]

OK...guess it's time to add my $.02 worth here.

Hi Brickman,

 

If you have ever been on the recieving end of a full Shotokan reverse

 

punch done properly by a more advanced practicioner you will remember it. The true power of the reverse punch is the full useage of the hips. When you employ the proper hip rotation to the punch the power is increased.

 

Of this, I have no doubt. BUT...are you going to be able to throw this Shotokan hip into it punch...totally committing your entire body into the technique...into a moving, dodging, weaving and non-stationary target? Doubtful. Yes, it's a powerful punch with the eintire body and hip rotating thrown into it, but you're likely not going to be able to use it that way unless the guy you're fighting stands there like a post and says "Hit me".

 

So, if you can't expect to use the technique realistically, what good is it other than for kata?

 

Agreed Shorin. However when used as a finisher at the end of a combo or when in close and you have a grip on your opponet it packs a whallop.

 

Every technique has its purpose and place.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Sorry...I never did summon the motivation to rewrite everything. Here's an old post of mine I was referring to. Some of my views have changed here and there, but it's more or less the same as this.

 

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=14623&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

 

Perhaps one of these days I'll rewrite it along with my updated opinions and whatnot.

[pers]

T. The biomechanics of the arm are optimum at the 3/4 punch. In the full rotation, the bones cross one another and there are pressure points that are vulnerable with the full rotation punch that aren't vulnerable with the 3/4 punch.

 

Second: Most of the level of study is not as in-depth. By that I mean there are many Shotokan fighters that can punch hard, kick fast and have a good knowledge of distance and timing. However, they lack an advanced perspective on close range fighting, to include grappling and joint or pressure point manipulation

 

Third: Speaking of energy. My opinion is that most Shotokan stances and fighting are deadlocked in terms of energy. That means that when techniques are executed from a Shotokan stance, the energy can not flow. You can view this energy as ki or biomechanics. Arakaki wrote an interesting book in which is fundamental theory was that ki was merely the utilization of gravity. Take it as you will. My point is that Shotokan has unrealistically deep stances that require pure muscle strength rather than optimum body mechanics to fight or shift from. I knew a Shotokan stylist that had an unbelievably deep front stance. Yet he could kick with his reverse leg extremely fast, but it would require much more muscle power (that he had gained from years of practice). Muscle power helps in martial arts, you must strengthen the body. .

 

Tenth: More Shotokan dojo seem to teach classes in a much more "rigid" fashion where people are mostly at strict attention and in solid lines, etc. This isn't so much a Shotokan thing as it is a Japanese thing. It has influenced many Okinawan styles as well (the influences have gone both ways), but I've seen a lot more "casual" Okinawan dojo then Shotokan dojo. Primarily due to the idea that "traditional" always meant hardwood dojo floors and large masses of karateka, which is a relatively new thing in karate.

 

I could go on and on. I really don't mean this as an all out bash against Shotokan. But these are just differences I have noted in between Shotokan (and more Japanese styles of karate) and Okinawan karate. Feel free to pm me, email me or contest me here if you disagree with anything I said. Once again, these are criticisms of a system as a whole, not necessarily individuals or individual dojo, which vary.

 

I see the point you are making ,perhaps because shotokan is the most widely spread style in Karate and some of them are run by people who have limited knowledge of shotokan , most of them have never really progressed beyond shodan ! although they may claim to be this dan or that ! we all know about these so called instructers who progress in rank so repidly that they have to bleach their belt to white to catch up with the dan grades they claim! they don't do the art any favour .

 

I have seen shotokan instructers and practitioners in deep and unrealistic stances which make me laugh but to blame shotokan for that is not fair.

 

I have trained in shotokan only since 1984 and I do not consider myself an instructer or an expert in shotokan but I have seen people with no more than 3 years training who start teaching others and within a very short time they become a 3 rd or 4th dan !

 

 

 

so what do they have to offer ? in terms of karate ,not a great deal ,but they will hand out grades the same way they graded themselves providing you pay the fees !

 

But things are diferrent in a credible shotokan dojo ,you will not see those long rigid and deep stances ,but fluid and fast and powerful techniques ,detailed kata training and there are real instructers who are able to take students beyond brown belt and shodan ,something that those micky mouse instructers in macdojos can not do .Sure they offer grades and flashy diplomas and badges to keep students happy but thats all they can do !

 

It took me 8 years to grade for shodan and 3 years beyond that for nidan and I never felt good enough to grade for sandan ,but in another dojo maybe I could have been a 6th or 7th dan by now !!

 

I must emphesise that this problem is not only with shotokan , other styles suffer from it too.

[pers]

Shotokan stances are deep. They are more difficult and it is definately harder to move from them. However, we use them for training and kata.

 

We do not fight from those stances. A higher more natural fighting stance is employed by most. The thinking is that if you can move and perform techniques in a deep stance, you can easily do it more quickly and just as strong in a shorter higher natural stance.

 

Thanks for the response. My only concern about this is that in doing so, you train yourself to move relying more on muscular strength, thus the emphasis on "strong" whenever people talk about Shotokan stances. You are right in this sense. Those deeper stances allow for muscle development that make shorter stances "stronger", but it is making you rely more on the muscles than on biomechanical efficiency. It is because more natural stances do not rely on muscle that they will always be quicker and in my opinion, more combatively stable and effective with regards to muscle transition stances, even if those muscle transition stances are "higher and more natural". Relying on muscle is okay for people who are young and energetic in some cases. But when we talk about refinement and betterment of technique, you have to shift your training. Don't get me wrong, I am all for working out and getting stronger. But when it comes to something so combatively oriented as kata, I want to train the way I fight. Anything else would be detrimental in terms of efficiency in training.

 

I'll go into depth about my thoughts on the punch later once I summon enough motivation.

 

Even when you punch the keys of your key board to post your point of view you are relying on your muscles in your fingers ! .Basic shotokan training does condition the right muscles dynamically.This when done properly will form a strong foundation that would serve one a lifetime !

 

and would even help one in other sports ,in my case goalkeeping ! you may know much about okinavan style but your knowledge of shotokan seems to be limited.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Even when you punch the keys of your key board to post your point of view you are relying on your muscles in your fingers ! .Basic shotokan training does condition the right muscles dynamically.This when done properly will form a strong foundation that would serve one a lifetime !

 

and would even help one in other sports ,in my case goalkeeping ! you may know much about okinavan style but your knowledge of shotokan seems to be limited.

 

Strange. I've had a Shotokan instructor tell me I was very accurate in my portrayal of Shotokan. In fact, most of the points I listed were taken from an email I sent to that instructor a while back.

 

What's more, I am talking about generalities of Shotokan as a style. What you describe is most certainly an exception rather than the rule. Again, not all Shotokan dojo fall into the category of what I described. But most of them do. It's not because they are taught by incompetent instructors. It's because they are teaching the characteristics of Shotokan. Can you do Shotokan and still be streetfight effective? Yes. In my opinion, there are more efficient ways of training and fighting that can achieve the same effect, that's all.

 

As far as my point about the muscles go, please re-read my post and consider what my message was. Of course you will use your muscles, but you're missing the thrust of what I was saying entirely. Since you have been training for over twenty years, you should be able to grasp the meaning I was trying to convey.

 

If you still disagree, please dispute my original post point-by-point. Simply saying my knowledge is limited won't convince me.