karate against weapons

[mudoshin]

hi,

 

i was wondering if anyone here has wondered about how karate would fare against someone trained in using a weapon....like a katana or even a bo or a jo for example....

 

while there's always much practice in the use of karate against empty-handed attacks, discussion about the application of karate against a sword seems the next logical step.

 

any thoughts?

 

kevin

[Kempohands]

As far as traditional karate techniques are concerned, I don't know. However, when learning MA for modern self defense purposes, I don't see why one would want to learn how to defend against a sword.

 

If your talking about karate vs. knives or sticks, then yes, there are plenty of ways to defend against these weapons with bare hands. I don't know much about different karate styles, but I know in Kempo we learn tons of ways to defend against knives, clubs, bottles, ect. The only practical thing we don't really learn a defense for is a longer ranged blunt weapon such as a bo.

 

Now, if we're talking about a well-trained knife fighter, then I don't think many empty handed martial artists could win that confrontation. Karate vs. Trained "weapons (knife, staff, chain whip-things that can be easily replaced with normal objects, not swords) fighters" is a little bit different than average self-defense.

 

just my opinion....

[Red J]

Now, if we're talking about a well-trained knife fighter, then I don't think many empty handed martial artists could win that confrontation. Karate vs. Trained "weapons (knife, staff, chain whip-things that can be easily replaced with normal objects, not swords) fighters" is a little bit different than average self-defense.

 

just my opinion....

 

I agree with your opinion. I wouldn't want to have to defend myself against anyone with a knife, but against a well trained person it would get ugly. Its the same with a stick or a bat. Sure we practice against these attacks, but how effective are you going to be against someone who knows what they are doing. Making up 30" inches on a stick fighter is a tall task. Luckily not too many people carry swords!

[ShotokanKid]

My teacher taught me that to block slashes, you wrap a jacked around your arm and use it as a shield. When they stab, you'd better move. It's not easy to defend against most weapons especially a bat. It will probably break a bone if you try to block. But a broken limb is better than a cracked skull.

[Waylander]

Now, if we're talking about a well-trained knife fighter, then I don't think many empty handed martial artists could win that confrontation. Karate vs. Trained "weapons (knife, staff, chain whip-things that can be easily replaced with normal objects, not swords) fighters" is a little bit different than average self-defense.

 

just my opinion....

 

I believe this is where me and you will differ on this...

 

My personal opinion, developed through personal experience, has taught me one basic understanding: Anyone with a weapon is at a complete disadvantage. Of course, I'm excluding guns from the equation, but most with say knifes, sticks etc., is at a disadvantage.

 

What do I mean? Well, if you're in a situation with a guy who's got a knife, then what's the knife man thinking about using? The knife of course! And then you stand there and you laugh. Why? Because you've got more weapons than him! You've got hands, elbows, feet, knees, heads (or maybe just one head!), fingers, everything!

 

His thinking is also extremely limited because he has a knife. Because essentially he's limited himself to one weapon, then automatically as a consequence he's limited the amount of movements he can make. He can slash, stab, thrust and so forth, whereas you have SO much more possibilities.

 

Of course you're defeated once you've started thinking, "Oh no! He's got a knife! He can cut me!" Of course he can! But once you've trained your mind to realise that you have a major difference over him, you can see ways to ignore the knife altogether. You may be, for example, extremely frightened to go near a knife man because of his sharp thing! That's the worst thing you can do! The key, in my experience, is to get in close. Once you've done that, you'll confuse him (because he's not expecting you to get in his face), you can disarm him and then handle him quickly and efficiently.

 

It's mainly fear that will get you stabbed, not the knife itself. If you start thinking "I'm gunna get stabbed!", then guess what? You're gunna stabbed. You're not putting yourself in a resourceful state to handle the situation effectively, and you won't take the actions needed to handle it. If you're thinking is "I have an advantage here", or even "There is no knife" (Matrix anyone?), you will put yourself in a much more resourceful state and you will be more likely to take the necessary actions to handle the situation efficiently and effectively.

 

These are, of course, my personal opinions and experiences and I intend no disrespect on anyone. *bows respectfully, contemplates the Zen garden*

[Shorin Ryuu]

My personal opinion, developed through personal experience, has taught me one basic understanding: Anyone with a weapon is at a complete disadvantage. Of course, I'm excluding guns from the equation, but most with say knifes, sticks etc., is at a disadvantage.

 

What do I mean? Well, if you're in a situation with a guy who's got a knife, then what's the knife man thinking about using? The knife of course! And then you stand there and you laugh. Why? Because you've got more weapons than him! You've got hands, elbows, feet, knees, heads (or maybe just one head!), fingers, everything!

 

His thinking is also extremely limited because he has a knife. Because essentially he's limited himself to one weapon, then automatically as a consequence he's limited the amount of movements he can make. He can slash, stab, thrust and so forth, whereas you have SO much more possibilities.

 

My turn to respectfully disagree. I think this point of view is often cited by many. The problem I have with this point of view (it's heavy Bruce Lee origins notwithstanding) is that it continually underestimates the adaptability of the opponent. If I had a knife or any other weapon for that matter, I would not be too "pre-occupied" with it to the exclusion of everything else. For trained weapons users, the weapon really is an extension of their self, meaning that just because they have it, doesn't mean they won't use other "weapons" at their disposal. This logic would be like saying those who are good at punching will only punch, because it is their best weapon.

 

Hogwash. The sad fact is, you just simply have to accept the possibility of getting cut in a knife fight. Once you get over that, you have a chance at winning. However, saying that the person with a knife is at a distinct advantage always seemed rather silly to me. If that was the case, then we wouldn't necessarily use weapons in combat, would we? We would just be content with being so incredibly versatile that we wouldn't need weapons; they would just distract us. Meanwhile, we would most likely be getting sliced to ribbons...

 

Underestimating your opponent simply because he has a knife would be a huge mistake. Again, it is simply not giving him enough credit. There are those who really focus on just the weapon they have. That is the same for people who are unarmed as well. But a trained knife fighter isn't necessarily one of these people.

 

As you mentioned, getting in close is your only chance of success if you can't run away. Otherwise, he'll just slash at you from a safe distance. But just because you've gotten in his zone or even temporarily stopped his knife from hurting you doesn't mean you're "safe".

 

Bottom line: Don't assume the person with the knife is "stupid".

[MASIsshinryu]

Absolutely.

 

The presence of a weapon simply changes the methods in which the opponent may attept to hurt you. Where there once was a possible punch, there now is a punch, followed by a slash... etc.

 

The immediate expectation of being cut is often cited as a method of preparing the mind and body to that possibility, when facing a knife-wielding opponent. Without it, an otherwise minor cut may cause panic and shock.

 

If your opponent does fit into the category of those that fixate on the weapon they are holding, then thier actions will create openings for you. The assumption that this is the case can easily lead you to try for openings which you quickly discover do not exist. In some knife fighting training, individuals are taught to play off of this, and use it to lure in opponents (Lunge with the knife, but follow up with the opposite elbow immediately, as an example. If you take the bait, and try to wrap and control the wrist, you are in range for the elbow strike.)

[Kempohands]

Waylander, although that was a very good post I have not changed my opinion. I must continue to respectfully disagree with you.

 

You can't just assume that a person is that narrow-minded or has that little of an ability to adapt. If someone is a trained weapon(s) fighter then they have an understanding, like Shorin Ryuu said, that the weapon is simply an extension of themself. I could see how maybe an average, nervous person may have this mentality and preoccupy themselves with only one weapon, but someone who is trained with a weapon will probably not have this mentality in a confrontation.

 

A knife is a deadly thing, it would be dangerously arrogent to just assume that you have an advantage because you believe that your opponent is that preoccupied by their own weapon.

Bottom line: Don't assume the person with the knife is "stupid".

 

As always, nothing more than my opinion....

[Waylander]

Woohoo! I'm going to enjoy this...

For trained weapons users, the weapon really is an extension of their self, meaning that just because they have it, doesn't mean they won't use other "weapons" at their disposal.

 

I think this is where the challenge lies. My arguement was based on the idea of some 'thug', if that is the right word. Basically, someone who has no proper training in using a knife. If that is the case, whereby you are facing someone who has no good idea as to how to use the knife efficiently, then I believe that person to be at a disadvantage.

 

However, when we come back to your strong arguement, you do have a distinct point. When you are facing someone who is trained to use a knife, then I feel that there is no distinct advantage or disadvantage to either of the opponents. I personally see this as a balance. The trained knife attacker has had to sacrifice some movements and techniques so that he can hold and use a knife. That means that he can't grab properly with that hand anymore, no can he punch with that hand anymore. Instead, he gains other advantages, like being able to cut, slash, stab, he automatically gains a little distance, he also gains some psychological advantage too.

 

That's how I see it, a balancing act.

Underestimating your opponent simply because he has a knife would be a huge mistake. Again, it is simply not giving him enough credit. There are those who really focus on just the weapon they have. That is the same for people who are unarmed as well. But a trained knife fighter isn't necessarily one of these people.

 

I agree, as mentioned before, my arguement was based on facing a knife opponent who has no training.

As you mentioned, getting in close is your only chance of success if you can't run away. Otherwise, he'll just slash at you from a safe distance. But just because you've gotten in his zone or even temporarily stopped his knife from hurting you doesn't mean you're "safe".

 

Of course not, not unless I've taken his knife from him or he's twitching unconsciously on the floor...

Waylander, although that was a very good post I have not changed my opinion. I must continue to respectfully disagree with you.

 

Good!

 

If you started to agree with me, I'd feel like I was doing something wrong...

I could see how maybe an average, nervous person may have this mentality and preoccupy themselves with only one weapon, but someone who is trained with a weapon will probably not have this mentality in a confrontation.

 

Absolutely. My standpoint was based on somone with no previous experience in using a knife, but facing a trained knife opponent is altogether a different kettle of fish.

 

I have experience of this. I was once training in Tang Soo Do and Master Green, 4th Dan, was teaching knife defence and knife attack. His insights were amazing and some of the things he was doing to people with a wooden knife made my stomach positively churn!

 

Let's face it, what are the chances of engaging in a situation with an opponent who is trained in using a knife effectively?

 

Which brings me onto my next question: who here has had experience with facing someone, for real, who has threatened you with a knife? How did it come about and what did you do? I'm just curious...

[Kempohands]

Ah, there was my confusion, after you clarified things a bit I must say that I have a better understanding of where you're coming from now, thank you for that. Also, after reading your last post it seems that we really don't disagree much, if even at all. While I acknowledge that an untrained person would probably be preoccupied by their own weapon, I feel I should share something that is a policy of one of my instructors: Always assume you are either at a disadvantage in a fight or you are your opponent's equal. Never assume you have an advantage unless you create it for yourself.

 

Now, I hope you can see where I'm coming from, after years of hearing that it's embedded in my mind.

 

As for your last question I can breath a sigh of relief as I write that I've never been in a situation where I was facing someone with a knife. Granted I'm still a student in high school, so I haven't even had any real expirence in fights without weapons.