Converting empty hand kata into weapons kata

[Shorin Ryuu]

I brought this topic up in another section and thought I should just put it here instead.

Edit: By the way, I don't necessarily view doing empty hand kata with weapons as the best way to learn them. While you do want it to be an extension of your hand, so to speak, many of the empty hand kata were not necessarily designed with a weapon in mind. Each weapon has it's own unique characteristics in addition to the general principles that apply to both empty hand and weapon fighting. These unique characteristics are important in getting a real depth for your training in the weapon. You can only get these characteristics by studying kata designed specifically for that weapon.

 

I understand if things like pinan shodan no sai are just to aid the beginner without having to learn a brand new form. However, I think it is inefficient and the student would just be better off learning drills and weapon-specific forms from the beginning. What does everyone else think of this?

[harleyt26]

I agree with Shorin Ryuu,to use empty hand kata for a weapon kata would completely change the applications within that kata.Although the weapon is an extension of the hand the applications are done at different ranges than the empty hand kata.Many techniques with the weapons seem identical to empty hand techniques.but the applications are usually(but not always)against armed attackers,which would obviously change the range of attacks and defences.Disarms and finishes of course are the exception.To practice empty hand kata with a weapon does not make it kobudo without application of technique in mind.Without proper technique and application in mind (empty hand or weapons)you are just dancing.If you do not have a weapon kata I would recommend as Shorin Ryuu said,just practice drills and I would also recommend some makiwara practice to assist in properly learning to hold and strike with the weapon without injury to yourself.

[ovine king]

depends.

 

as you might know, the knife form from wing chun can be applied empty handed.

 

that's because the knife movememtns are based on hand movments and you can simply exchange the knife version for the hand version.

 

i'm not sure how many other weapon forms are so closely tied to their emptyhand equivilants.

[harleyt26]

How were you originally taught the form?Knife against knife or knife against empty hand.In my forms they are generally taught against another weapon until a disarm then you are expected to addapt to an empty hand situation.In the arnis we practice it is the same.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Something else to consider here is that a weapon is just an extension...technique-wise anyway...of a hand movement. In Shorin Ryu at least (I can't speak for other systems), the techniques using weapons and empty hands are very similar in their applications.

 

For me, and I've done this many times just for the heck of it, I see no problems whatsoever in taking a sai, kama, tonfa..whatever, and using it in a karate kata.

 

With that said I'll pass along a little caution here from my experience. When doing Pinan Yondan with kama, be VERY CAREFUL not to jab the point of your kama in the ball of your foot when executing the simultanous hammer fist and front snap kick to the side. Kama's will stick in the ball of your foot pretty easily and bleed like hell!

[tommarker]

owwww....

 

IN FMA systems, the drills are the same whether empty hand, knife, stick, machete. Why wouldn't karate be the same?

[Sauzin]

Well I'm not going to say that there is no value in applying empty hand kata to weapons, but I will say that there is a lot you can't get this way. Like Shorin-Ryuu said there are a lot of techniques that utilize the very unique aspects of each weapon in weapon kata. After having learned weapon kata, and gained a familiarity with the weapon I think it is much easier to use it in an empty handed kata. But in my opinion it would be nearly impossible to use a weapon with any degree of effectiveness in an empty handed kata unless you had this familiarity first.

 

For example if someone who had never used a sai decided to run through Pinan Shodan with it. They never learn how roll into a strike off a block or how to transition forward after catching a bo between the prongs or how to throw someone to the ground by thrusting the butt end of the sai just below the collar bones. Now sure, if you already know these things from practicing kata made for the sai then you could probably find a way to add them to empty handed kata. But if you just tried to do Pinan Shodan with the sai without this experience, what would you really be gaining? I mean to me, the value of doing weapons exists in learning these unique aspects and how they can be applied. If you don't have these things exactly what is the value of using the weapon? I just hate to see any weapon reduced solely to an “empty hand enhancer”.