Kata or fighting

[brickman]

I think the argument here is a very unfortunate side of a bad coin. Sparring is not what it should be....why? Because far too many people teach martial arts for profit...and quite frankly people who have jobs to go to the next day dont want to go to the hospital for all out fighting. My sensei tells us we are wimps compared to the guys he used to fight....He says they could barely carry their hand pads out the door when they were done fighting (when indeed they used them)...He has fought through broken ribs....feet...collar bones...because as stated previously here it was not a game of tag then....it was literally to ensure you were the one who walked away from a fight. Today it has become more a game of tag than actual application of technique.

[yamesu]

I dont only practice kata against invisible opponents,

 

Bunkai is only really effective when its done with partners.

[Shorin Ryuu]

If the question is kata or sparring, then I'll choose kata every time. Sparring is a useful tool which I feel should be done every once in a while, but too much of it builds bad habits in my mind.

 

why do you think so? Do you not think that too much kata can produce similar bad habits?

 

I thnk sparring is good to produce good reaction times and unpredictability. However, these things can be reproduced in drills as well. To me, the worst aspect of sparring, whether it is point sparring, continuous, or even "full contact" to include the takedown is that the techniques you will be using most often to hit your opponent or grab or takedown are not necessarily the ones you will use on the street. In effect, you are training your body over time to "pull punches" to "hold back on your throws" and to only use relatively "benign" (although these can hurt or injure) techniques. Certainly you don't want to always injure the other guy on the street, but too much of this sparring training will create an artificial construct within your mind in regards to actual fighting.

 

I'm not saying you can't spar. There are those better than me that do spar somewhat regularly. I did mention I thought it was okay to do it every once in a while (I much prefer yakusoku kumite or drills myself, but like to make sure I still "got it" by throwing some elements of randomness in there).

 

However, free point sparring is in my mind completely worthless, as usually those who win are in such a bad position that they would get destroyed on the street if the fight continued. Free sparring without the takedown is in my mind, of only very, very limited value. It operates on the whole understanding that both opponents will not elevate to the next level, which is closing in and grappling. Again, it is good for reaction time and perhaps basic combinations, but very limited. Free sparring that includes grappling and the takedown is somewhat better, in my opinion. If you have to do one type of sparring, I would support this one. Since it is walking a line between what you would do in a fight and how not to hurt your opponent, it perhaps reflects most accurately a "real fight", at least in comparison to the other methods. But, once again, you have to hold back too much since you are doing it at high speeds. The way I see it, most of Shorin Ryu takedowns center on three main things: The head/neck, the arms/shoulder and the legs/knees. That's fairly common sense. The one I would argue you would have the most success in manipulating once you get contact (the head/neck) is the one you have to hold back the most in a sparring situation.

 

Many people would say "Yeah, but if you know what you are doing, you can do it at high speeds without getting hurt." But even those that really "know what they are doing" must hold back so much that they are cheating their technique. Performing kata is the only way that these moves can be done to completion because the opponent is not there to be seriously injured or killed.

 

Someone mentioned about how free sparring simply wasn't being done correctly, how people would often sustain injuries or those kinds of things. I don't think that is the correct way of doing them. Sustaining injury while training is never good, I don't care what anyone says. All that means is that someone crossed the line, so to speak, and broke the understanding between the two people. In sparring, it is too easy to hurt the opponent. You never want to injure your partner, it's self defeating on many levels. Therefore, sparring training has to hold back, otherwise you can't do it very often. This holding back, in turn, makes it incapable of being the dominant training tool for fighting. It can be a tool, just not the dominant one and certainly not one used with heavy regularity.

 

Perhaps some of this boils down to my overall philsophy on fighting itself. I'm not ever going to use my skills unless I accept the possibility of hurting the other person. Simply controlling or otherwise avoiding an attack is relatively much easier than focusing entirely on attacking the person or rendering them incapable without hurting them. By controlling an attack, I mean nullifying rather than locking up the opponent. Again, since I will only use my skills when I have to accept the possibility of injuring my opponent, I won't have to worry about holding back, which is exactly what free sparring develops in a person. We hear about the vaunted "old days" and how little Okinawan masters actually sparred. People like Motobu Choki who went out and fought to get real world experience actually fought, not sparred. Other masters simply used their skills for whatever reason (law enforcement, protection, whatever), fighting and sometimes killing those people they faced.

 

The pioneering of protected free sparring was an attempt to bring in the aspect of real fighting that most people don't ever have to face in the more civilized parts of the world. I think some of it is a good innovation, but is relied upon too heavily by many. I'm not going to say kata and sparring are two equal halves of one whole, because frankly, I don't believe sparring deserves to be an equal half.

[Dragn]

Kata is a great method to train by yourself or to practise bunkai with a partner.

 

As stated by others Kata contains the core principles and techniques of your art.

 

But if you dont practise contact free sparring you're never going to be preparred for the adrenalin and unpredictability of a real fight.

 

I preffer sparring myself. Thats where it all comes together.You can find out what works for you and what doesn't. Sure there are some techs you cant use in sparring because of the danger of serious injury, but there are alot that you can use too! For me its the ultimate opportunity to put the skills I've learned into practise.

 

Both are great. Finding ballance is the key.

 

But I have little faith in styles which over emphasise kata and dont spar.

 

9 times outa ten they just cant fight.

[ps1]

SevenStar,

 

I was wondering who would call me out!! Of course, you're right.

 

Even Funakoshi Sensei wrote in his 20 precepts of Karate.

 

"Kata is one thing, fighting another."

 

While kata demonstrates the techniques and applications for techniques, you are not performing them on a person! You can drill bunkai, but this is also not fighting.

 

I also agree with Shorin Ryuu. Sparring, while a very fun game, creates poor habits. Even though you perfer jabs to back fists, when is the last time you gave someone your best jab during practice. You simply don't. You hold back.

 

In the last year I have begun practicing BJJ. Several of my classmates have asked me how kata works, why we do it, so forth and so on. The fact is... understanding Kata takes a very long time. Some would even say a lifetime. I've only been practicing it for 20 years. So I explain it to them this way. Kata contains, literally, thousands of techniques and counters and applications. So does BJJ. That dosen't mean you will use it all. But BJJ isn't completely applicable to everyone either. If you have short stubby legs, a triangle choke is going to be very difficult for you to perform well... but your halfguard might rock! It's the same with kata. You will take what you need. But you must teach it all because the other stuff may work well for one of your students. Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

To answer the original thread. I love playing the game of sparring, it requires strategy, atheleticism, and spirit. But I enjoy more, practicing the art of Kata, not just for application, but for the sense of peace it brings forth.

[AngelaG]

nevermind - when I re-typed it, the meaning hit me. Here's a question - are all of those techniques really necessary? If I don't use them all when I fight, do you think I am at all disadvantaged? For example, heian yondan has a backfist targeted at the bridge of the nose. I would never do that - heck, I don't even throw backfists at all - but I do jab, which accomplishes a similar goal.

 

It's only targeted at the bridge of the nose if you chose to decipher the bunkai that way - the way I do it it is actually targeted at the back of the head (GB20 for anyone into PPs)

[SevenStar]

nevermind - when I re-typed it, the meaning hit me. Here's a question - are all of those techniques really necessary? If I don't use them all when I fight, do you think I am at all disadvantaged? For example, heian yondan has a backfist targeted at the bridge of the nose. I would never do that - heck, I don't even throw backfists at all - but I do jab, which accomplishes a similar goal.

 

It's only targeted at the bridge of the nose if you chose to decipher the bunkai that way - the way I do it it is actually targeted at the back of the head (GB20 for anyone into PPs)

 

how are you getting to the back of their head? are you using the movement prior to that as like an arm drag to spin them around or something?

[SevenStar]

To me, the worst aspect of sparring, whether it is point sparring, continuous, or even "full contact" to include the takedown is that the techniques you will be using most often to hit your opponent or grab or takedown are not necessarily the ones you will use on the street. In effect, you are training your body over time to "pull punches" to "hold back on your throws"

 

sure you will hold back, but during full contact, you hold back far less. When you do drills, you hold back as well.

 

 

and to only use relatively "benign" (although these can hurt or injure) techniques. Certainly you don't want to always injure the other guy on the street, but too much of this sparring training will create an artificial construct within your mind in regards to actual fighting.

 

I'm not sure about that one. I think you're completely correct in saying that by sparring you will not be using more debillitating techniques, but on the same hand, who's to say what is actually debillitating? my cross to his nose may well break it. My cross to the xiphoid process may lay him out. the roundhouse to the knee may jar and strain it, etc. lethal isn't necessarily limited to breaks, gouges, etc. IMO, and since I spar, I have utmost confidence that I can throw these techniques against a fully resisting opponent, because I do it all the time.

 

 

However, free point sparring is in my mind completely worthless, as usually those who win are in such a bad position that they would get destroyed on the street if the fight continued.

 

I whole heartedly agree.

 

 

Free sparring without the takedown is in my mind, of only very, very limited value. It operates on the whole understanding that both opponents will not elevate to the next level, which is closing in and grappling.

 

understandable.

 

 

Again, it is good for reaction time and perhaps basic combinations, but very limited. Free sparring that includes grappling and the takedown is somewhat better, in my opinion. If you have to do one type of sparring, I would support this one. Since it is walking a line between what you would do in a fight and how not to hurt your opponent, it perhaps reflects most accurately a "real fight", at least in comparison to the other methods. But, once again, you have to hold back too much since you are doing it at high speeds. The way I see it, most of Shorin Ryu takedowns center on three main things: The head/neck, the arms/shoulder and the legs/knees. That's fairly common sense. The one I would argue you would have the most success in manipulating once you get contact (the head/neck) is the one you have to hold back the most in a sparring situation.

 

that's understandable as well.

 

 

Many people would say "Yeah, but if you know what you are doing, you can do it at high speeds without getting hurt." But even those that really "know what they are doing" must hold back so much that they are cheating their technique. Performing kata is the only way that these moves can be done to completion because the opponent is not there to be seriously injured or killed.

 

When dealing with the neck, I say better safe than sorry. that would bring me back to my first point though about adaptation... sweeps from the clinch that utilize head control, takedowns where you push down on the neck, but torque the arm as opposed to the neck, etc.

 

 

Someone mentioned about how free sparring simply wasn't being done correctly, how people would often sustain injuries or those kinds of things. I don't think that is the correct way of doing them. Sustaining injury while training is never good, I don't care what anyone says. All that means is that someone crossed the line, so to speak, and broke the understanding between the two people. In sparring, it is too easy to hurt the opponent. You never want to injure your partner, it's self defeating on many levels.

 

I completely agree. I do think that some injury will happen as part of training - bruises and such - you can get those from pad drills as well - but anything in excess of that is due to something going wrong. It does happen, however.

 

 

Therefore, sparring training has to hold back, otherwise you can't do it very often. This holding back, in turn, makes it incapable of being the dominant training tool for fighting. It can be a tool, just not the dominant one and certainly not one used with heavy regularity.

 

As opposed to drilling and kata? kata you can do it full power, but with zero resistance...

 

 

Perhaps some of this boils down to my overall philsophy on fighting itself. I'm not ever going to use my skills unless I accept the possibility of hurting the other person. Simply controlling or otherwise avoiding an attack is relatively much easier than focusing entirely on attacking the person or rendering them incapable without hurting them. By controlling an attack, I mean nullifying rather than locking up the opponent. Again, since I will only use my skills when I have to accept the possibility of injuring my opponent, I won't have to worry about holding back, which is exactly what free sparring develops in a person.

 

I think that's a good point - outlook has a lot to do with it.

 

 

We hear about the vaunted "old days" and how little Okinawan masters actually sparred. People like Motobu Choki who went out and fought to get real world experience actually fought, not sparred. Other masters simply used their skills for whatever reason (law enforcement, protection, whatever), fighting and sometimes killing those people they faced.

 

because it was acceptable then. And if you can do that regularly, then that's a great way of getting the experience. In thailand, they don't spar, they mainly drill and do pad/bagwork - but they fight once a week. they get plenty of experience without fighting. Most people today do not get that.

 

 

The pioneering of protected free sparring was an attempt to bring in the aspect of real fighting that most people don't ever have to face in the more civilized parts of the world. I think some of it is a good innovation, but is relied upon too heavily by many. I'm not going to say kata and sparring are two equal halves of one whole, because frankly, I don't believe sparring deserves to be an equal half.

 

As I said above though, it's relied upon because that's what's availoable. how many people today fight for their lives on a regular basis? how many are involved in life or death challenge matches? Few, other than the cops, security guards, bouncers, etc.

[SevenStar]

But you must teach it all because the other stuff may work well for one of your students. Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

completely agree. Not only that, but it keeps the system in tact. If you teach me only what you like, then I take what I like from that material and only teach my preferences to my students... eventually there would be nothing left.

[jakmak52]

I prefer kata over sparring, Bassai Dai is my favorite next to Kwan Gae.