TO HIT AND NOT TO GET HIT ? THIS IS MY QUESTION !

[Chado]

Interesting discussion...I enjoyed reading the many points of view, so I'll share some of my thoughts.

 

At my school we have ALOT of differences in peoples opinions on what sparring is...so we have to adjust accordingly.

 

When we do sparring we usually try to rotate through enough matches that everyone gets to spar with everyone. Great emphasis is placed on sparring being a 'reactionary drill' and that you are learning how to avoid taking damage (key words there, getting hit is irrelevant if it doesn't do any damage. Hit me all you want as long as it doesn't cripple my ability to strike back). When I spar with 'certain' people I pull my punches 2" or more and don't make contact with my kicks...is this good sparring? In my opnion...no, but this is how they want to train and I respect there wishes because that's why they come to Karate, not to get beat up. No problem.

 

When I spar with my good friend James it's a whole different story. We strike hard, our blocks are hard...we aim to strengthen our shins and our forearms so our blocks can be used as strikes. In tournaments I find blocking roundhouses with elbows and strong forearms restricts further attacks from that weapon. Is it my fault that I train hard and it doesn't bother me to take a kick like that, but it hurts there foot? I don't think so...maybe they should train harder?

 

So the bottom line is when it comes down to sparring...contact should be at a mutually agreeable level...point sparring is fine, but free sparring is definetly necessary as well. "Variety is the spice of life" and I equate that into my karate as well

[yamesu]

Well-wicked words of wisdom Chado.

 

OSU.

[Hudson]

I think theres different types of sparring for different reasons -

 

Obviously, point sparring will not teach you to endure, to counter once you get hit, etc;

 

Contact sparring will give you an advantage when it comes to taking hits and enduring

 

Theres other forms which work purely on the philosophy behind your techniques, such as one-step sparring (Partner throws technique a few times, you execute whatever you believe is best for the situation and counter on the last time. This becomes step one. Step two the partner thinks about what you did and then reacts and counters. It's almost like inventing katas and isolating work on strategy.)

 

But as far as not getting hit, I think it's practical to train getting hit equally with avoiding hits. I want to avoid a strike, but if it does make contact, my first thought will be "So what?"

[SevenStar]

not necessarily. This is where the term "roll with the punches" comes from. you have to learn to absorb shots in various ways. By knowing how to deal with the hit, you are better apt to NOT get knocked out by that forst puch which connects...

 

Except for when you are sucker punched from behind...

 

in which case, him focusing on not getting hit wouldn't have helped either...

[vertigo]

in which case, him focusing on not getting hit wouldn't have helped either...

 

a fair point.. I have a feeling the whole sucker punch from behind thing is neither here nor there right now. It's kind of an abnormality in this discussion; you can't do much of ANYTHING if you are going to be punched from behind without your knowledge, much less try to think about avoiding the hit or being willing to take the hit to give one back.

 

also (going back to: avoid being hit? being hit to hit? question..):

 

It's also possible that at this stage in my training I would MUCH rather not take a hit to give one.. odds are, whoever I might be fighting against is much bigger than me (I'm only 5'10" 130) or will hit much harder than me.. so taking one of their hits to give one of my own is relatively pointless at this stage in my training, I haven't developed my power sufficiently yet.

not necessarily. This is where the term "roll with the punches" comes from. you have to learn to absorb shots in various ways. By knowing how to deal with the hit, you are better apt to NOT get knocked out by that forst puch which connects...

 

I still disagree (once again, possibly because of the level I am currently at).. I still have the feeling that if you take a bad enough shot, it is still very difficult to "roll with the punch".. Learning to recognize pain as part of fighting? That's realistic.. but you are not really going to be able to learn how to take punches you'd see in a realistic fight situation unless you are in one (which I wish upon no one).

[SevenStar]

a fair point.. I have a feeling the whole sucker punch from behind thing is neither here nor there right now. It's kind of an abnormality in this discussion; you can't do much of ANYTHING if you are going to be punched from behind without your knowledge, much less try to think about avoiding the hit or being willing to take the hit to give one back.

 

I think so as well. I only commented since it was brought up.

 

 

also (going back to: avoid being hit? being hit to hit? question..):

 

It's also possible that at this stage in my training I would MUCH rather not take a hit to give one.. odds are, whoever I might be fighting against is much bigger than me (I'm only 5'10" 130) or will hit much harder than me.. so taking one of their hits to give one of my own is relatively pointless at this stage in my training, I haven't developed my power sufficiently yet.

 

I'm not advocating taking a hit to give a hit. I'm advocating being comfortable taking a hit. I stated that the guy in the example had the right idea - he was obviously comfortable taking hits. And, he did so in order to land a shot of his own. Ideally, you don't want to take a hit, but chances are, you probably will. If you are only training to not get hit - a la light contact sparring - you are IMO disadvantaging yourself as you are not becoming comfortable with the feeling of being hit.

 

 

I still disagree (once again, possibly because of the level I am currently at).. I still have the feeling that if you take a bad enough shot, it is still very difficult to "roll with the punch"..

 

you roll as you are being hit. in some arts, it's known as absorption. it's to minimize to minimize the effect of the blow.

 

 

Learning to recognize pain as part of fighting? That's realistic.. but you are not really going to be able to learn how to take punches you'd see in a realistic fight situation unless you are in one (which I wish upon no one).

 

that's what the ring is for. I think it would benefit all martial artists to at some point do at least one full contact and/or mma match. it's an exercise in fighting against a fully resisting opponent.

[yamesu]

Styles: Most hardcore style ever where you have to break your own bone to pass a black belt test because it's that hardcore and street effective and hardcore

 

Nice style.

 

I did a frontflip down a flight of ten stairs, landed on my butt, (unintentionally,) and shattered my tailbone.

 

Does that qualify me for black belt???

 

I know..........its not THAT street effective.......

[yamesu]

you roll as you are being hit. in some arts, it's known as absorption. it's to minimize to minimize the effect of the blow.

 

Indeed.

 

Imagine a Semi-trailer travelling at 100km/h colliding with a car travelling 100km/h in the exact opposite direction. (ie-head on.)

 

Now, imagine a Semi-trailer travelling at 100km/h colliding with a stationary car.

 

Finally, imagine a Semi-trailer travelling 100km/h colliding with a car which is travelling 90km/h in the same direction as the truck.

 

Which of the situations presents less force impact on the car????

I think it would benefit all martial artists to at some point do at least one full contact and/or mma match. it's an exercise in fighting against a fully resisting opponent.

 

I believe that these benifits can be taught in a dojo, or during sparring.

 

I also believe that tournaments, regardless of contact levels, are still only forms of sparring.

 

OSU.

[SevenStar]

I agree, they are only forms of sparring. but that is as close as you will get to anything real. As for those benefits being taught during class sparring sessions - the intent is different. Even if I go 100% with a guy in my club, that knows me, that I train with all the time... the intent isn't the same as fighting against someone who doesn't know you, has no tie to you and wants to tear your head off.

[Chado]

I agree, they are only forms of sparring. but that is as close as you will get to anything real. As for those benefits being taught during class sparring sessions - the intent is different. Even if I go 100% with a guy in my club, that knows me, that I train with all the time... the intent isn't the same as fighting against someone who doesn't know you, has no tie to you and wants to tear your head off.

 

That makes perfect sense...I don't know about you but in a street fight I wouldn't even be thinking along the same lines as in sparring. My favorite sparring 'technique' is fake jab - reverse punch...I'm not saying I wouldn't ever use that, but I'm more likely to use knees, elbows and maybe some open hand strikes to soft areas...I guess it just depends on the level of seriousness of the fight.

 

I was thinking through it and even with me and my friend James sparring full contact we are still aiming for areas that aren't going to permanently damage each other, we would never kick each other in the knees...or purposely strike each other in the throat.

 

I guess that's why we train so many different things...power with breaking boards/concrete...reaction timing with sparring...strong technique through kata/bunkai...and self defense for awareness.

 

And I missed the comment before about 'hardcore style having you break a bone to pass black belt'. Now this is just my opinion but this is one of the stupidest things I've heard to date :/ When you break a bone it never heals as strong as it once was...I participate in a fair number of 'high risk' sports...I spar hard in karate and I give 110% at everything I do. I have not broken a bone in my body...I've gotten hurt plenty of times but I haven't broken anything. I know alot of people who have broken there arm...and then rebroken it again later because it's not as strong. But, just because I dont think its a good idea to break bones to get a black belt...that doesn't mean other people don't. I just hope there aren't people getting led around on a leesh

 

Chado