wrong direction?

[P.A.L]

I've been around martial arts for a fair amount of time; I've practiced many different styles okinwan, japanies and Korean. As we know karate started from Okinawa, moved to japan and to korea,… many karate masters started their own styles based on Okinawan Karate, I have seen many off shoot styles still doing some basic forms like Naihanchi,Passai,Pinan with different names, execution and interpretation. still I have not seen one style to do these forms as strong and practical as okinawans do, so what's this urge to make new styles which have a softer interpretation compare to original styles? newer styles are more sport oriented and less deadly, the fighting system as Matsumura or Hohen Soken had taught to many okinawans is simple and straight forward , take the eyes, take the knees...,

 

as time passes by and human being becomes more civilized many habits and life styles have been changed. could this be the reason for martial arts to become sports oriented? Last night sensei told me that one of the students has left because his mother thinks it's to violent and he may break his already cracked finger. Going into this new era that human being becomes less active, calmer , and virtual reality looks more real than ever before,

 

Should we follow the society toward more peaceful life by watering down the original martial arts?

[Shorin Ryuu]

I don't think that's the answer. If anything, the core of lethal or seriously damaging techniques present in traditional arts makes it less likely to be used in the street. I personally will not use my martial arts (other than the obvious dodging, parrying, maybe restraining a drunk, things like that) unless I feel the person really is trying to seriously hurt me. Anything else, and it's simply not worth it. Ethically, spiritually, legally.

 

If you are really good at painful but not necessarily deadly techniques (punching, kicking), you are more likely to use them. And I'll take this example from a Stephen King story. Bees have less of a tendency to sting you because they can only do it once. Wasps will sting you over and over because it doesn't kill them to do so.

 

Therefore, I think keeping the knowledge of lethal and critically injuring techniques is important. And weapon in the hands of an ethically flawed person is dangerous. It doesn't mean we should rid ourselves of them.

 

I think some watering down has occurred simply because of the reason you mentioned. Times have changed. People don't fight as much unarmed between each other (at least in more civilized portions of the world), but personal violence will not appear. If anything, the need to know personal combat increases because there are less people walking around with weapons openly in society. Therefore it makes a confrontation more likely to happen while you are minimally or completely unarmed. It always pains me to know that a few people with boxcutters were able to hijack a plane...

 

The other reason martial arts became very sport-like is because in the case of Okinawan karate, it was simply dying out. Many people weren't practicing it. With the Meiji Restoration and the official annexation of Okinawan by Japan, there wasn't a warrior/nobility class anymore. The introduction of it into the school system required the watering down of techniques so they wouldn't hurt each other. Naturally, like any thing in school, it turned towards competition and sport. And another thing, if it was being taught in public schools, there was no way for quality control. Sometimes it was watered down simply because the teacher didn't know that much. Karate was never meant to be mass-produced in the first place, anyway.

 

But the short answer is..."No."

[Souldburned]

Martial arts like Karate aren´t to be teached in school..yes, very true. And I have an story about that. My sister ( now 13-years-old ) had judo and karate in school during 2 years, truly she didnt learned anything...and now everytime I ask her if she want to join me in karate, her asnwer is always a no.She says that karate doesnt worth anything. That hurts me.

 

But what hurts the most is knowing that the 2 years that she had MA in school made her think that way.

[kzshin]

Yeah, There are alot of Karate moves that I will never use unless I really feel that someone is really going to hurt me. Many moves are very dangerous and can cause serious damaging even death.

[senna_trem]

Sometimes when two people have a problem with each other in real life, I think they do need to have a fight to the best of their ability to get it out of their systems. I'm not talking about malicious fighting when a group of people hurts one person; I'm talking about a fairly clean fight between two people, who other than their beef with the other person are perfectly fine.

 

Long ago when we were a little more primitive this established a pecking order and once the fight was over one person was declared dominant over the other and things got on their way. I still think that this would resolve some problems in our society.

 

The best fight situation I would imagine, this is the specific kind that I condone is, two people don't like each other. The feeling is mutual and they both rub each other the wrong way. Not intentionally, but it just happens. They get in a physical fight, one is declared the winner after the other one admits defeat in some way. They go there separate ways, the winner does not bully the loser, but they are civil to each other for a while after that. Maybe the tension builds up again later and they have to fight again, but for a while things are fine.

 

Now it's all lawsuits and "zero tolerance policies" to violence. Normal kids fight. This doesn't mean they're depraved psychos who will come to school with guns or anything. Alas, society now has decided that violence of any kind is beneath them. My idea is idealized as some of you will say, but this system of not fighting builds up aggression levels in people, young guys especially, to high levels if something is not done about it. That's why some guys do resort to using ultra-violent video games in their spare time. I'm sure my thinking is a little subversive, but hey, that's just who I am.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I think the aggression that builds up in some people doesn't necessarily have to be channeled by the act of fighting itself, which is why I disagree with the crux of your argument. Of course, people do need to get things out of their system. That's why people take up hobbies or sports (although some people take this too far in terms of channeling aggression, perhaps) or whatever. But having to fight simply to relieve aggression is wrong, in my opinion.

 

The other thing you said was a good clean fight to resolve an argument. What I don't like about this is "right and wrong" can not be decided by the outcome of a fight. A person who is right will be right, regardless of whether they beat the person who is wrong or not. Sometimes it is the lamentable case where the person who is right has to use force in order to stop the person who is wrong. However, it isn't ever to simply "prove" a point, because the notion of right and wrong isn't relative...(And I'm not going to get started on the prevalence of moral relativism I see in much of today's society). It is because it has to be done. Sometimes the person who is wrong has to be confronted by someone who is right, not to convince them ideologically, but because their actions are unallowable. In those cases, yes, a fight is warranted. But not because people don't like each other.

 

Edit: In the case of two schoolkids, we aren't exactly talking about two rational adults or people with a developed sense of moral reasoning, so yeah, they might just fight anyway.

[senna_trem]

The other thing you said was a good clean fight to resolve an argument. What I don't like about this is "right and wrong" can not be decided by the outcome of a fight.

My "system" is not for resolving arguments or about establishing right or wrong, or then the person who is stronger would always be right. It's just about disliking a person.

 

This is a "perfect world" argument on my side. I do understand that it would apply to about ten people on the face of the earth.

[AnonymousOne]

P.A.L I could not agree with your more. Our school is Japanese based but trains in the same very strict manner as the old Okinawan masters. Some feel the schools training is too hard and too brutal so they leave.

 

Later you seen them join up another school that has been watered down and they are wearing a shodan black belt and yet their skill is no better than a 3rd or 4th Kyu.

 

The emphasis is placed on sport karate, high kicks and flashy movements but these people unfortunately are not very skilled. I have spent almost my entire life training and teaching in traditional karate and it breaks my heart to the see public get the impression that these schools leave.

 

Basically they are heretics in my mind and these schools water the training down to ensure that they keep the large fees coming in that large volumes of students bring. It seems to me the almighty dollar is placed far ahead of what Karate is really all about.

 

My son has a friend who was a shodan in a school that is called Combined Martial Arts Academy. Its an eclectic mix of many martial arts. Really the way they train is no better than Pilates with a few punches thrown in. He came to train with us one day (my son is Sandan) and he simply could not believe the different in skill level. We trained for 2 hours and then decided to go for an 8 mile run to finish off. He ran about one mile and flaked out.

 

His cardiovascular system simply was not up to 3rd Kyu level let alone Shodan.

 

He was certainly flexible and could perform high kicks but without any power, which in my mind is useless.

 

After this training session he soon desired to train with my son and myself and attends twice a week at our dojo at home. Its been a year now and I still feel he is not ready to sit Shodan at our school.

 

Of course, its a free world and people have a right to open a school and train people any way they wish. Sadly this concept will always be to the detriment of Karate as a whole.

[1kickKO]

karate should never be watered down, nor the origins..some people just aren't cut out for it, or just don't like it. The origins of karate are important to be passed down to know the history, and reasoning behind what you are learning and why/how it's done that way