origin of katas

[buddy]

well its not really the origin of the katas, but what the begining stance/move of the higher katas symbolises.

 

for example with the begingin of basai dai the fist(left hand) and right hand clasped on top. what does it mean, ive heard so many things like "good and bad", "origin of kata (chinese)", "i can fight but dont want to"

 

ne of u guys got insight for any of the katas would be helpful, cheers

[Shorin Ryuu]

I've always found that there is no move in the kata that is not wasted. The only thing ceremonial or symbolic is the bow. Even the method of clasping the hands in a certain way can be interpreted as different self-defense techniques. Perhaps in the newer kata like the Pinan kata the way the opening stance is set-up is more of establishing a uniform position to start from. However, in all the kata, the first move is always a technique. In newer tournament type kata or modified old ones, people have added convoluted salutes and things so these will probably not have any useful meaning.

 

I've always found the "good and bad" and "I can fight but will not" as being nice philosophically but rather unrealistic. They didn't need such external reminders. For better or worse, when karate was introduced to the Japanese in the early 1900s, one of the things they noticed was a lack of this spiritual permeation in karate so they added a lot of philosophy to it. Not that the people who practiced it before were not spiritual, they just didn't necessarily saturate their karate training with it. They just lived it instead. As a matter of fact, a poem from the 1600s I believe that I will most likely be misquoting horribly said that "No matter how you may excel in the art of te and your literary pursuits, nothing is more important than your behavior and humanity in your daily life." A lot of the philosophical interpretation of kata accompanied a general simplification of interpretation by many of the Japanese in contrast to how the Okinawans viewed their kata. There are many taking Japanese styles who are trying to bring this back, but many of the kata have changed pretty drastically already.

 

After I said all of that, no one will be really sure what the exact answer to your question is. And many people simply make up things because they honestly don't have any clue (as opposed to having a few clues but still not knowing) or they don't want to firehose you with advanced interpretations. Realistically, you can make up any myriad of explanations for the opening position in terms of techniques, but this is narrowed somewhat by what the following move is.

 

In my case I've always seen the opening moves as responses to grappling situations or first attacks. Of course, most all of my bunkai involve a mix of striking and grappling, so that would make sense.

 

Long story short: I don't believe in "this is my karate, empty hands" explanation for the starting position of any moves. And for that matter, nor do I believe in the existence of a "chamber position".

[G95champ]

The first move in Bassai Dai is a groin block. You then fall into either a backfist strike or a support block. Take your pick.

 

Some things like the hops at the end of Chintie are symbolic of the ocean returning to the sea but are also taught as jumping over a sweep, whip, or stick strike. Or even jumping on a down opponent with both feet.

 

Im sure you can find amy alt. teachings for any given move in any kata.

[kataman]

If you look at history,Okinawa is the largesse island of the Japan groupe of island sometime under the domination of China sometime under the domination of Japan that why there are so many resemblance betwen kung-fu and karate even in kata.

[1kickKO]

Are yo talking about when somebody bows they have 1 hand closed in a fist and the other resting on top? Not quite sure if that's what you mean, but if it is, then here's what it is: The closed fist means you are prepared to fight if you have to, and will defend yourself by any and all costs. The resting hand symbolizes softness, and your preparation to not fight if you can avoid it, i's kind of like a frendly gesture...pretty much the hand on fist means "Hey buddy I don't want to fight but if I must I will". Not sure if that's what ya meant, and if not, then ya just got a history lesson..but..yeahh.

[aefibird]

Many of the opening moves in kata can be open to interpretation. For example, I've heard about 6 or 7 different applications for the opening hand position in Bassai Dai, ranging from the very likely to the plain ridiculous.

I've always found that there is no move in the kata that is not wasted.

 

I agree. Even if a student doesn't understand the meaning of a particular movement or position there will be an explanation for it somewhere.

 

Personally, I don't tend to agree with the "spiritual" applications that are often attatched to certain techniques - I prefer to see kata as a fighting tool and therefore every technique has a useful application.

 

That's just my opinion though, and others may prefer to interprate kata with a more spiritual outlook. That's one of the reasons why there are often may different interpretations of particular movements within any given kata - even within the same style.

[AnonymousOne]

Interpretation of kata is certainly wide open. I have seen some very strange and wild ideas in my time. As for the begining movements - who knows? They may have had some spiritial connotation or even some battle uses. They are simply unknown symbols.

 

Unfortunately, in the western world, kata training tends to have become quite secondary to other training methods. When I was a young man and first got my shodan back in 1975 I thought kata was a waste of time.

 

Then I was challenged by my teacher to take a particular kata and practise it as hard and fast as I could for two hours straight. I soon learnt how hard it was and how much of it I had failed to grasp.

 

We have to remember that kata are a sequence of movements that a master from a by-gone era has linked together fighting techniques and messages to pass on to younger generations. These are like books.

 

A book has a page with information on it. In order for information to be passed down, its all categorised, put in its sequential order and passed on for others to read and study. This is what the masters of old have done. They have discovered many techniques that work and assembled them all together in a sequence of movements known as kata.

 

Often in kata, a master has sent a message. The technique is not a fixed technique. The master has sent a message to explore that type of technique.

 

For example in the kata Enpi, the main purpose of the kata is the attack with an immediate withdraw. The master who developed that kata obviously liked and taught the idea of fast attack with an immediate with-draw to assess the situation. This is a very old battle technique. But did this master mean to only use this particular technique? No I don’t think so. I feel that who ever developed that kata was sending a message to find all possible methods of applying that strategy to empty hand combat. Is it one technique? No. It’s a message to explore that strategy in every possible way.

 

This is where I fear for the younger generation, who are discarding kata. They treat kata as an outdated training method and miss the very deep messages and techniques that masters of old spent their lives developing.

 

In years of old, karate-ka were made to spend three years on one kata. I understand why.

 

Some people feel kata is ineffective in battle. If you have not heard this story then let me tell you now.

 

In ancient Okinawa there was a huge man who was regarded as the islands greatest swordsman. He was fearless and arrogant. He decided one day to attack Master Azato who was at the time, one of Okinawa’s greatest karate masters (he was a teacher of Gichin Funakoshi the founder of Shotokan). Yes with a katana (sword) and Azato was empty handed. So here we have two great warriors in a face of. One empty handed and the other, a master swordsman with his sword. Who would you have placed you money on?

 

The swordsman was defeated and bought to his knees by an empty handed karate master. Azato had only ever practised karate the old way.. that is .. kata and basics.

 

Practising kata, in that situation, was not useless to him. If it worked then, why will it not work now… for you??

[P.A.L]

very good post,AnonymousOne

[Kempohands]

Excelent post AnonymousOne. I completely agree with you. Practicing kata is a great way to make yourself a better martial artistist, it opens one's eyes to the many different concepts of fighting. I could spend an entire class going over kata interpretations with my instructor (although I know very few fellow students my age in my dojo that would agree with me on that).

 

As for the first movement of a kata, I believe that is has spiritual meanings as well as combat applications. For example, bowing with a covered fist in front of your chest (this is called "front position" in my dojo) could be interpreted as a wrist lock counter to a grabbing your own wrist/hand.

 

 

 

This thread could go on forever though, there are so many ways to interpret kata it's amazing.

[aefibird]

That'd make a great article AnonymousOne!

 

Excellent post.