What weapon do you actually carry?

[Hitman]

The winner is the one who goes home alive...Not really my opinion. In my opinion, the winner of any fight is not determined until AFTER the court case. If you use a gun in self defense- heck in some states, even using your hands in self defense- you immediately draw the question of excessive use of force. Did you aim to kill or did you aim to injure? Is your skill with the weapon such that you could have accidently killed the assailent when you were simply trying to injure him and end the threat? These questions sound silly when you think of it in the mindset that you are trying not to be killed. However, after you survive, lawyers are going to be asking you these questions- probably in a court hearing, maybe in a civil case brought by the so-called "victim's" family. Even if you do survive the attack, are you now looking at a life sentence in prison?? AND, all of this is from the perspective that it is legal to have that firearm/weapon to begin with. If you were carrying the weapon illegally, you may as well have tried robbing someone yourself because the law is going to see YOU as being a criminal.

Also, let's say that a guy with a gun is trying to rob you. If you pull your own weapon- gun, knife, whatever- and kill the guy, you MAY end up being seen as a criminal even if you were carrying legally. Often it depends on the MOOD of a jury. Read that again and tell me if you wanna depend on that. Even if you cripple the guy- let's say you "cap" the guy in the knee instead of kill him- you MAY end up with a criminal case of excessive force againt you or certainly a civil case. Ask any policeman, Sheriff, or Trooper who has had to go through such an investigation and they will tell you how trying this can be. One wrong word, one wrong split-second decision and you're now the criminal.

Now, if you are facing that same gun toting "bad guy" with only your empty hands, you are IMMEDIATELY seen as being in an obvious situation of of desperation. Even if you KILL the guy- crush his throat, whatever- it was your empty hands against a gun, and a jury is more likely to see it as self defense than as an excessive use of force.

In short, (I know, too late) a weapon will certainly even the odds against an armed assailent, and this is probably the downfall of carrying a weapon. If you are carrying, you are obviously skilled, practiced, and liscensed while the bad guy probably is not. All it takes is a slight miscalculation on your part or a slight "bleeding heart" feeling on a jury's part to transform you from defender to murderer.

[SBN Doug]

All excellent points.

You forgot the one where you are looked upon as "looking for trouble" because you were in a certain type of environment (like a bar) and you were carrying a weapon.

I don't carry any weapons (as such). I do wear a flexible belt that could be used for defense, and I usually keep an eye out for any object I could use if necessary should I accidentally happen into a less than safe environment.

I first use common sense wherever it is possible, and steer clear of any environment that would lend itself to assailants carrying weapons. Second, I keep a constant observance of my environment, attempting to prevent entering an area where a confrontation is likely.

To the comment about throwing knives, I do train in throwing knives. Once you have the principles down, you can throw just about any kind of knife, spike, dart, etc., not just the ones specifically made for throwing (just an FYI). So in theory, if he's close don't throw it. If he's far, and you have more than one knife, then you could opt to throw one IF you are prepared for the possibility of him pulling it out of himself if you didn't hit a vital area. (if, if, if, if)

I'm certainly no superman, nor do I ever want to come up against someone with a weapon of any kind. However, my response to my friends who make the motion of pulling out a concealed gun (finger) to show me how they would "deal" with someone with MAs training has always been:

You assume that I didn't already evaluate the chance that you had a gun, or that I would move in closer if the possibility was there. So, if I'm within 6 feet of you, you better be Clint Eastwood fast on that draw, or you might find that gun facing back at you. I sometimes have them repeat the motion with me treating them as an actual threat. Typically they don't get their hand out from under their arm.

Not intended as a boast. Just a fact that having a gun doesn't automatically mean you'll beat an un-armed man either. You need the proper training just as with any weapon.

[UseoForce]

All good points, except for a couple things:

1. The odds of an unarmed individual coming out on top against a fire-equipped individual are so negligable that they aren't even really worth mentioning. The only exception is if the unarmed individual manages to put the armed man out of commision before the armed man is aware of his presence. Good luck justifying that...

2. Speculating on what a jury will rule is just that: Speculation. It isn't worth examining except at the most basic levels. You should look at means, oppurtunity, intent, and the use of force (hehe) scale. That's the best you can do. Beyond that, everything is up to judge, jury, and lawyers. I won't choose my weapons (or lack there-of) based on what I think I jury will sympathize with.

Also, some reality-based martial artists (myself included) tend to over-play the whole "survive the legal battle thing." If you actually read the data, most people who injure or kill an assailant in REAL SELF-DEFENSE (NOT EGO FIGHT) are granted complete clemency.

[Hitman]

I want to completely disagree with your #1 statement for the following reasons:

1) You are- I believe- assuming the guy is expert with the weapon or at least practiced. I'm not sure I would call your typical back-alley robber a practiced handgunner.

2) I believe you are assuming that he even has a half-way decent weapon and not some $50 "Saturday Night Special. "

3) Finally, I know from experience (I helped train local Police and Sheriff's Depts) that if I am within about 6 feet, even an experienced handgunner cannot "clear leather" against me. OK, his holster IS snapped shut, but your alley thug is gonna have it hidden and must retrieve it from his hiding place (without dropping it).

So, in my opinion, if the criminal is 10 feet or more away, or has his weapon already drawn, you had better give him what he wants and hope he doesn't want more than you have, cause your chances are slim. Closer than that, or if he has problems getting his weapon out and firing- he can put his head between his legs and kiss his butt good-bye.

And, frankly, I am MUCH more afraid of a knife attack anyway. If the guy has a gun, it's already in his mind that he has a lethal weapon. Most people do not view a knife as such even though it can be. OK, well...if the guy has a bead on me from 20' away with a gun, it's his world and that scares me to death, but a hidden knife in the hands of someone who is even half capible scares me almost as much.

[SBN Doug]

Finally, I know from experience...that if I am within about 6 feet, even an experienced handgunner cannot "clear leather" against me.

I could have sworn I have seen that statement somewhere before.

[ArmorOfGod]

i carry nothing but my hands, that's all i need.

And it should be all you need unless your not secure in your ma skills!!!??!??

I could not disagree with that statement more.

If you have your hands, what good are your hands (and feet) against a guy with a knife, trash can lid, and five buddies behind him ready to help him out. If someone attacks you, how do you know what he has in his pocket?

What if you are jumped by three guys at one? What martial art is going to help?

That is where a licensed firearm, pepper spray, or some kind of legal weapon comes into place.

To believe that your hands are enough is asking to die.

AoG

[TheAnimal]

I usually have my pocket knife with me, occasionally I'll be carrying my gun. Trick is, at least in my state, don't draw unless you're already going to fire, and don't fire unless you're in danger. Done deal.

[UseoForce]

Hitman- My issue is even if you do get to the guy before he can draw, and even if you do land a couple shots or take him down, he only has to hit you ONCE and you're in serious trouble. It's not like "I (the unarmed guy) got to you before you could draw so I win." Even if he hits the pavement, he can still shoot you.

Furthermore, if this thug is intent on killing you his weapon will probably be drawn and at the ready.

However, if the thug is only using the weapon (or threat of, if it is not visible) as a form of intimidation, the unarmed guy would stand a reasonable chance, I agree with you there. And yes, lack of skill with firearms could help greatly. He might even forget to cock the hammer or take off the safety. I probably was assuming a bit much there .

My point is that against one who is skilled with firearmes and wants you dead, you have very little chance. It DOES NOT mean you should give up, it is only a recognition of reality.

[UseoForce]

why is there a star where I typed "cock." There really isn't another good word for it.

[SBN Doug]

Auto profanity filter.