speed fighting

[buddy]

in view of the other posts, i still think that standing still would not be very advisable, i too like 1kickKO would prefer too sweep someone who is standing still and it is possibel to sweep someone who is standing still by taking both legs. i dont think its a waste of energy bouncing as you do not keep the same rhythm, by feigning and testing your opponent and moving around the mat

[Skeptic 2004]

Different strokes for different folks I guess... .

 

Allow me to clarify my position a little; I practice traditional karate. I think this might explain my divergence from popular methodology (it will also explain my bias in future posts ). Like I said, I used to bounce, and I perfectly see the logic in doing so...but I've also been shown (painfully, I add) why not to bounce. Between the two methods, I prefer the latter. As Shorin Ryuu said, there is a difference between standing still, being rooted, being double weighted, and being efficient. Those are a little beyond the scope of the thread. I'm not suggesting you don't move (that would be stupid...very stupid); I'm suggesting that you change the way you think about moving. The first step is to cut out unnecessary movement.

[Shorin Ryuu]

It was mentioned that being bouncy allows you to move faster in the 8 directions than if you weren't. I believe this may be true in some cases, but really only if your method of moving involves pushing off the ground with your feet. And even then only sometimes, as it takes time for the muscle tension, even if only for a split second, to switch directions using this method.

 

But again, even assuming that you are faster this way (I disagree), the issue is pure speed (i.e., a sprinter) vs. relative fighting speed (i.e. two people). If your relative fighting speed to the other person is quicker, it doesn't matter how fast the other person actually is.

[1kickKO]

Well like I said it allows me to move faster than rooting myself, so I guess it's pretty much personal preference. But skeptic, I also practice traditional Okinawan karate, some people don't bounce, some people do..but as up to yet I haven't had a problem with it...also using unnecessary energy, I don't bounce when I don't need to, but if I see somebody about to attack, I get hoppy...people always say that they have a hard time hitting me and they call me jackrabbit...but it's just my style..it won't work for everybody, and I never meant to say it would (sorry if it came across from me that way) I just meant that it's what helps me move, and by staying grounded for whatever reason I feel flatfooted and unspeedylike..haha (is that even a word?) ...anyways, I enjoy this post..lol.

[searcher]

I think we should all remeber that being bouncy and being light on your feet are two different things. With that in mind being rooted does not mean being unable to move quickly.

[brickman]

Most international fighters...esp. those from Europe fight with bounces. The reason is...as mentioned before...timing...or messing up timing. Bouncing has no place in real life fighting, but in sport fighting it does. Plain and simple.....now...the question becomes...what do you mean by bouncing? How high, etc. That is where the rubber meets the road. Remember, when we are talking about really good competitions we are not talking about who hits harder, etc. It is about who moves the fastest with the cleanest technique. Also, in many of those competitions the point very often goes to the guy who is moving IN (and appearance of speed...someone standing still does not appear to be faster...etc). I realize most people consider it a game of tag and it really doesnt mean much in real life....but it does give you a certain amount of speed.....only if you know how to use it correctly and if it works for you. I would also like to point out the phrase "so and so got caught flat footed".....wonder why that phrase came about...it must have some meaning?

 

I would also like to ask a question for clarification. When those of you fight (those who said they dont "bounce") do you not take a step in or back to hit or block? If you do take a step do you do so with your heel down?

[buddy]

yeh i get what u mean skeptic, i used to practise traditional karate whilst i was doing the earlier kyu grades, but now i feel i personally prefer sport karate.

 

i though still dont agree with some of the comments that u shouldnt bounce in a real fight situation. through bouncing in a fight situation (sport), eventually your mind gets set that when you are bouncing you should be ready for a fight, i would not feel right trying to fight when not bouncing, because i do not practise that way. i think it is similar to a punch, you practise countering with a gyak and eventually whenever u are attacked it becomes second nature to gyak.

[1kickKO]

I kind of bounce as high as Muhammed Ali, but a ltitle quicker, now in a real life street situation I wouldn't bounce as much as I do in class and sparring, but I WOULD be light on my feet, I would bounce a bit in a fight but not much, more than likely anyways I would go into some jujtisu techniques and not be bouncing at all but try and finish it ont he ground quick and fast...buttt if there were mroe than 1 guy heck I'm not staying flat-footed, I"m bouncing around and using each of them to my own advantage(Although I hope I never get into that situation..*knock on wood*).

[Ted T.]

Fast kicks:

 

Ok, we got balance and relaxation, the best two things to start with.

 

Now look at timeing - it is not who is faster but who gets there first. Kick late and I don't care how fast it is, he's already buying a capucino down the street!!

 

You've got combinations down, now go for a quicker tut-tut app (like Musashi says) or even start the kick half way thru the block or strike...that is, don't wait for your muscles to tell you the block or strike is finished and it is time to kick, start it while still in mid hand move.

[Skeptic 2004]

Wow....I didn't realize this would generate so much discussion (specifically, I didn't think what I had to say would draw so much attention given my newbie status to these forums).

 

Brickman brings up a very valid point: there is a difference between real fighting and sport fighting. I do not deny the logic of bouncing in a sport scenario (like I've said twice now, I used to do it). I would only argue that the philosophy that has been beaten into me over the years can be applied to both situations with amicable results. In either situation, cutting out unnecessary movement is key. Before I quit tournament training, I experimented with not bouncing. I noticed after I stopped bouncing that I was able to read bouncers a lot more clearly (not to mention I noticed them telegraphing kicks, strikes, or fakes) and interdict them whenever we fought. While the idea didn't take right away, when I began my traditional training, it made sense to me. Bouncing was an unnecessary movement. Perhaps my experience is unique to me...perhaps not. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Brickman also wanted to know how it is that I move now that I don't bounce, and I'm assuming others in the thread may also be curious. Allow me to elucidate. (*Beware...here comes my traditional karate bias*) If you're curious to know how I move sans bouncing (I can hear you all holding your collective breath), I try to move the way I move when I practice kata; to be more specific, I try to move as if I am doing Naihanchi kata (to preempt some smart alecks, no, I don't move side to side like a crab ). Naihanchi practice teaches you when to be rooted and when not to be rooted, how to distribute your weight when and where you need to, but most importantly, how to be light on your feet. I try to practice Naihanchi as much as possible because over the years I have noticed marked body and maneuver control. I'm not exactly "fleet of foot", but I move around pretty quickly in both absolute and relative terms (faster than I did bouncing). Why Naihanchi? Chokki Motobu "walked with Naihanchi", and if you are familiar with karate history or Okinawan folklore, Chokki Motobu was one of the quickest and most nimble fighters of his time - his nickname was "Monkey" for reasons other than how he looked .

 

I'm also trying to incorporate the idea of the imaginary center of gravity espoused in Kiyoshi Arakaki's The Secrets of Okinawan Karate (a highly recommended read for anyone of any style, might I add). Shorin Ryuu, I understand, has actually elaborated on this concept a bit, and since I'm still reading the book, I defer to him if you have questions.