Bassai Sho experts

[G95champ]

We have started to study Bassai Sho a lot of late at our dojo and a few questions are popping up so Ill open them up to KF and see what we get.

 

1. First question deals with the Kia's. The first is on the stonp or low thrust kick the seoncd? is on the hammer fist???? Correct. Reason we are questioning this is because they are so close together.

 

2. How goofy does everyone else feel when doing the final 2 moves lol? Them more we do them the more natural they feel but mad their odd...

 

Anyone really like this kata? I like it only because its differant but when its all said and done it don't rank high on my list of kata to do for fun.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I can only answer your very last question.

 

I've seen Japanese version of the Passai Kata (Bassai) and I didn't like them very much. I can't help you too much on your other questions, as I've noticed some versions are markedly different from the Okinawan ones.

 

On the other hand, the Okinawan Passai kata are among my favorites. It is full of great fighting principles and techniques that I enjoy doing.

[P.A.L]

1- kiais in the version i know are at the side kick as you said and at the 3rd Morote-zuki in the other end right before 2 goofy Sagurite.

 

2- they are goofy and the trade mark of all passai or bassai

 

3- i really like to know where this kata comes from, what is the history behind bassai sho, as we know bassai dai is a off shoot of Itosu no passai or passai sho in shuri-te but bassai sho has nothing to do with any other shorin passai or may be i am not aware of that, so please come in and give us some info on bassai sho.

[Shorin Ryuu]

From what is the best source on these sort of matters in my opinion (John Sells' book Unante: The Secrets Of Karate) the Passai Dai and Sho of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu and related styles (of Chibana Chosin lineage, who was a student of Itosu) are Tawada-Passai and Itosu Passai Dai. Itosu being Matsumura's student and teacher to many. Tawada was also a direct student of Matsumura and Chibana always taught that Tawada Passai was an authentic Matsumura kata.

 

Shotokan's Bassai Dai and Sho are Itosu Passai Dai and Itosu Passai Sho. One of Funakoshi's teachers was Itosu, so this makes lots of sense.

 

Thus, Bassai Dai and Kobayashi Shorin Ryu's Passai Sho should technically be the same, but I have seen them done quite differently.

 

I've also had a chance to learn and forget Matsumura Shorin Ryu's Passai dai and sho. Their Sho (which backs up John Sells) was pretty similar to Kobayashi's Passai Dai.

 

Edit: Sells states that Itosu's Passai Sho is his own innovation, thus making Bassai Sho an Itosu kata. He says the pattern and order of techniques are very similar to Matsumura Seito Passai Sho, but the intent of them looks markedly different.

Edited January 25, 2005 by Shorin Ryuu

[ShotokanKid]

I was taught to kiai on the thrust kick and the last kinfehand block. I like this kata, however, I like kata that have jumps in them.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

1. First question deals with the Kia's. The first is on the stonp or low thrust kick the seoncd? is on the hammer fist???? Correct. Reason we are questioning this is because they are so close together.

 

I can't speak for the Japanese version of what I do..which is the Okinawan Passai...but there aren't any kata that I know of (ours anyway) where there is a kia during a kick.

2. How goofy does everyone else feel when doing the final 2 moves lol? Them more we do them the more natural they feel but mad their odd...

 

What are you learning is the bunkai (application) of the technique? Imagine yourself in a totally dark room. you are feeling for your opponent with your feet...reaching out and grasping their arm with one hand and the other is reaching our to the neck/shoulder.

Anyone really like this kata? I like it only because its differant but when its all said and done it don't rank high on my list of kata to do for fun.

 

It's not my favorite..but I like it anyway! lol I accept it as a "given" and "have to know it because it's important"...but the Passai kata are two of the ones I practice the least...and really shouldn't.

[P.A.L]

Shorin Ryuu, so you mean itosu passai sho is Bassai sho

 

itosu passai dai = shorin passai sho = Bassai dai of course not exactly ,if you forget about stances rest of the kata is almost the same.

 

I have seen matsumura no passai is close to kobayashi passai dai.

 

do you know why most of the styles just droped this kata (bassai sho ), do you know if Mabuni lineage (shito ryu) practice this kata?

[Shorin Ryuu]

I think some of the reason Itosu Passai Sho was dropped was simply because teachers usually did not teach every single kata they knew. For example, I'm pretty sure Chibana knew Gojushiho, but he didn't teach it. The Gojushiho in my system of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu actually comes from elsewhere (one of Hanshi Nakazato's other teachers/acquaintances, I forget the name off-hand).

 

Maybe it was felt that Itosu Passai Dai was good enough. It sounds wierd, but I think that could be a likely reason. All these style delineations and whatnot are new, as I have repeated over and over, and masters learned from various teachers, which can be seen from the mix of kata they knew and passed on. Since the Kobayashi and related styles trace their origins to Chibana Chosin, that just means he didn't teach it often or at all to his students. Chibana was known to pay his respects to Itosu by only teaching Naihanchi Sandan out of the 3 Naihanchi (supposedly the 3rd was Itosu's) and Pinan Godan (supposedly the 5th was the only one that was completely Itosu's innovation, the others were actually taken from the Channan kata). Another reason could be that unlike Tawada Passai, Itosu Passai, Matsumura Passai (etc.), teachers didn't pass it on because it wasn't necessarily a "true" Matsumura Passai kata. There are many possibilities, I suppose.

 

As far as I know (I could always ask a Shito Ryu practitioner who is a friend of one of my current sensei if I see him any time soon), the Mabuni lineage does do Bassai Dai, Bassai Sho and Matsumura-Bassai.

 

Edit: Your observation that Matsumura Passai is similar to Kobayashi Passai Dai makes sense, as Tawada was a direct student of Matsumura.

[G95champ]

Yeah I understand the searching movement what its used for I just ment I feel goofy doing it. Just needs work its wier moving my foot and hands. Sort of like patting you head and rubbing you belly. lol

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Yeah I understand the searching movement what its used for I just ment I feel goofy doing it. Just needs work its wier moving my foot and hands. Sort of like patting you head and rubbing you belly. lol

 

I've seen the Shotokan version of the kata, and that movement is quite a bit different than the Shorinryu version. Similar yes...but very different also. The same goes with a lot of the Shotokan kata that we do also...same...but not the same. Which reminds me...I need to go watch that Shotokan class again one of these days just for the heck of it. Nice people.