Putting McDojos out of Business

[isshinryu5toforever]

I suppose it depends on the person, but would United Studios of Self Defense be considered a McDojo?

I have never heard of them, but there's a lot I've never heard of. The martial arts world is huge. I don't think this particular forum discussion is about outing potential McDojo. It's entirely about our feelings on the matter. Having been on the website for quite some time, I'd have to say that karateforums isn't quite the place for discussing legitimacy claims or degrading another martial arts school. I'm not sure if we've ever discussed legitimacy claims on here at all, and if we did, I'm sure it was over something ridiculous like 'no touch' knockouts.

Back to the main topic, I'm not a fan of how widespread McDojo are, but there isn't much I can do about them as a person. As long as they never sell themselves as something they aren't, I don't have much of a problem with them. My main problem comes when they tell their students, and make them ardently believe that they are ready for a self-defense situation when it simply isn't true. I've seen schools that basically teach Tae Bo. It's wonderful for fitness, and it's a great community of people, but a school that teaches realistic self-defense it is not. As long as they're honest about things, I don't generally have a problem with McDojo. They definitely fit squarely into modern US thought that things need to be quick and easy. Why work hard somewhere to get a black belt, when somewhere else will make you work less hard and give you the "same" black belt. From all the times we've discussed what a black belt means on this forum, you get the sense that to us, it definitely means something, but to the general public, it's kind of something cool they can show their friends.

[sensei8]

I get a kick out of the title of this thread/topic. Why? Trying to put McDojo's out of business isn't going to ever happen, at least not in my lifetime, because they've [McDojo's] firmly planted their feet, and as much as it pains me to admit, they're [McDojo's] here to stay.

The only way to lessen their impact is to provide our students with a higher quality of instructions than any of our competitors, not just the McDojo's, imho.

Besides, there's NO GOVERNING body over the martial arts as a whole! So, the McDojo's will continue whether we like it or not. McDojo's are protected by the very same thing as you and I are...Free Enterprise!

[Akikazeninja]

This is how i see it there were these two people on wipeout that said they studied TKD and they were both wearing blackbelts I didnt think anything of it until i noticed their ridiculously colorul Gis and their black belts which had obviosly just been randomly awarded with because they were about as cheesy as it gets and that was on TV so it just bothers me that people see that and say wow is that what martial artists are like thats pathetic so i am not saying tkd is bad i am just saying they obviously shouldnt have been blackbelts and they probably attend a McDojo and were practically given black belts this is just a hard subject to talk about because i dont like to judge but when people give martial arts a bad name it frustrates me

[JiuJitsuNation]

McDojos.... They are a dumbing down of martial arts so that more people can feel involved in them. Young, old, disabled and on and on. When i first started I thought what is wrong with these people? They are just going through the motions. They aren't real and they can't even fight. Some people are interested in martial arts and want to get a workout that makes them feel involved. I think it's ok as long as the instructor are students are realistic with what they are teaching or getting out of the program. At the same time sea biscuit didn't know he wasn't supposed to win, so who am I to say they won't actually be effective. The older I get the more I realize I don't know and what i think i know rarely matters to anyone else but me.

[bushido_man96]

That's really putting it into perspective, JJN.

[GeoGiant]

That's really putting it into perspective, JJN.

I feel the same.

[JiuJitsuNation]

I also have to wonder, after reading on thread after thread on forum after forum, how many people are just in denial. I hear terms like "us real martial artists" and things like this and think to myself is this person possibly training at a "real" dojo? This is coming from a person(myself) who has to be very patient (with myself) because I am extremely judgmental and idealistic. Once I came to realize my own behavior and tendencies I actually became a better instructor, competitor, husband, business man, etc. My point is most people are totally unaware of themselves, and can't step outside themselves to see where they really stand amongst their peers and society. They don't see how they are being seen. This is s truth I am aware of every day. I know many things about myself, but some people around me may see more than even I do about me here and there. It's easy to see others and yet very difficult and sometimes painful to look at ourselves. I have a womens class that is 90% stand up self defense techniques and some escape work on the ground. I make it perfectly clear to them what they are learning and why, so that they are not misinformed about their abilities. There are very few women that immerse themselves into any form of martial art, especially BJJ. However, the ones that do are amazing. So when I'm teaching those ladies I know in the back of my mind I want more for them in terms of their training, than they do for themselves... and so, I must accept that. So my goal is to make them as effective and efficient with those things, as I am with what I do for myself. I make them work very hard at those very basic things to create a flow and an ease about them when they do it, So that there is no thinking involved. I stood around for years learning to do the prettiest kicks punches and stances and forms. I really wanted to compete in forms because it was easy to me and I was good at it. Then a day came that I needed those tools for defending myself and they didn't work. Someone had taken my money for a little over two years, giving me tools and not showing me how to use them. I was devastated. I could kick straight up and down and do some wicked spinning jump back kicks and blahzay blahzay. But for what? So they could fill class time and keep collecting my money? Now I see, and have been into many schools and seen. Half of the instructors I have ever met have the mentality of, "I don't show my students everything, I keep some just for me." I am taken back by this. I'm like what??? Why would you do that? I want them to be better than me. I pray for the day one of my students starts handing me my butt on a daily basis. And doing it out of skill and not the fact that I just got old. Again there are so many things to be aware of. If we look at knowledge in terms of percentages then think about this. Lets say 2% represents what you know you know and 3% represents what you know you don't know. That leaves us with 95% knowledge that we don't know we don't know. With that being said wouldn't it be difficult to truly make a call about anything not knowing so much??

ok i'm done thanks for listening

[Jeffrey]

I also have to wonder, after reading on thread after thread on forum after forum, how many people are just in denial. I hear terms like "us real martial artists" and things like this and think to myself is this person possibly training at a "real" dojo? This is coming from a person(myself) who has to be very patient (with myself) because I am extremely judgmental and idealistic. Once I came to realize my own behavior and tendencies I actually became a better instructor, competitor, husband, business man, etc. My point is most people are totally unaware of themselves, and can't step outside themselves to see where they really stand amongst their peers and society. They don't see how they are being seen. This is s truth I am aware of every day. I know many things about myself, but some people around me may see more than even I do about me here and there. It's easy to see others and yet very difficult and sometimes painful to look at ourselves. I have a womens class that is 90% stand up self defense techniques and some escape work on the ground. I make it perfectly clear to them what they are learning and why, so that they are not misinformed about their abilities. There are very few women that immerse themselves into any form of martial art, especially BJJ. However, the ones that do are amazing. So when I'm teaching those ladies I know in the back of my mind I want more for them in terms of their training, than they do for themselves... and so, I must accept that. So my goal is to make them as effective and efficient with those things, as I am with what I do for myself. I make them work very hard at those very basic things to create a flow and an ease about them when they do it, So that there is no thinking involved. I stood around for years learning to do the prettiest kicks punches and stances and forms. I really wanted to compete in forms because it was easy to me and I was good at it. Then a day came that I needed those tools for defending myself and they didn't work. Someone had taken my money for a little over two years, giving me tools and not showing me how to use them. I was devastated. I could kick straight up and down and do some wicked spinning jump back kicks and blahzay blahzay. But for what? So they could fill class time and keep collecting my money? Now I see, and have been into many schools and seen. Half of the instructors I have ever met have the mentality of, "I don't show my students everything, I keep some just for me." I am taken back by this. I'm like what??? Why would you do that? I want them to be better than me. I pray for the day one of my students starts handing me my butt on a daily basis. And doing it out of skill and not the fact that I just got old. Again there are so many things to be aware of. If we look at knowledge in terms of percentages then think about this. Lets say 2% represents what you know you know and 3% represents what you know you don't know. That leaves us with 95% knowledge that we don't know we don't know. With that being said wouldn't it be difficult to truly make a call about anything not knowing so much??

ok i'm done thanks for listening

That was a great read. Solid post.. thanks!!

[bushido_man96]

Excellent.

[ShoriKid]

JiuJitsuNation,

I see what you're saying above. Do I claim to be teaching the "real thing"? Yes, at least from my perspective. If I didn't think it was "real" I wouldn't be teaching those things. Which is why I don't teach some of the things that I was shown coming up in the arts. I definitely don't claim to be teaching the only "real thing". Just mine and what I know. I'll steal anything from another person or art without shame if I think it's good. I also give full credit where it came from. If I see something that's good and real, in my eyes, I'll tell people about that. And I'll train in it given half a chance.

I think where people get upset is where things happen like what happened to you. You were sold on an idea of what you were learning. In the end, what you were being taught was not what you were being told it was. You were sold a product labeled "F" (Karate that can fight). What was under the label was "P" (Karate that is pretty) and it's what you were sold. Sort of a sugar pill instead of real medicine.

Where people get so mad about McDojos is when they were sold real fighting martial arts and got something else. Now, as long as what you're being taught is what you're being told, it's cool. I was in a TKD school that claimed that what they taught would put you in great shape, increase your flexibility and become skilled in the art of TKD. They didn't claim that they were going to make you a super fighter, that you could beat up gangs. So, if I didn't become a great fighter with them, I wouldn't be able to blame them.

What good instructors should do, as you say, is look forward to the day when your students have learned everything you've got to teach. And they are better at it than you! But, that's why you have to keep learning, so you always improve and have more to bring to them. I have a couple of green belts(getting ready to be anyway) who have been with us and working hard for the past year and a half. Now I have to pay some attention to them when we spar. I'm teaching them everything I can. every little 'trick' and 'secret' that I've learned over the years. Things about hip movement, twist, getting core muscles into every strike etc. Just little things that add up. If I keep that back, and make them work, hoping they will discover them on their own(Like I had to a lot of them), I'm cheating them. I'm failing as an instructor.

If I held back things that will help my students improve. If I taught them things I didn't believe were real and functioning. If I claim to impart knowledge or ability that I'm not. If I do these things I've gone down the path of the McDojo. If you're honest about what you're teaching/training for, then it's not a McDojo. At least that's my opinion.