Sticking Hands/Pushing Hands

[Jack]

I was fearing it might have been so, I think I may start Wing Chun in a few years if I can move.

[YODA]

Hey Jack

 

Where abouts in England are you?

 

Maybe I can hook you up with someone.

 

 

[Jack]

YODA, I'd be up for that if you were

 

I live in the county of Norfolk, South-East England... anywhere near to you?

[YODA]

Hi Jack

 

Nope - nowhere near me - I'm in Wigan in the North West. I do, however, have a pretty extensive network of MA contacts - where in Norfolk are you?

 

 

[Jack]

I'll PM you that, Yoda

[YODA]

Not having much luck with contacts Jack. Seems you live in a Chi-Sao wasteland

 

The only place I can find is here....

 

http://www.norfolk-wingtchun.co.uk/

 

But I cannot say that I would recommend them - they'll bleed you of every penny you have before they get around to teaching you chi-sao!

 

 

 

_________________

 

YODA

 

2nd Degree Black Belt : Doce Pares Eskrima

 

Instructor : JKD Concepts

 

http://www.jkdc.co.uk / http://www.docepares.co.uk

 

[ This Message was edited by: YODA on 2002-02-17 14:18 ]

[spinninggumby]

Yea I would hafta agree that sticky hands and chi sau can't really be learned in books or by yourself b/c it is something that must be felt and learned with someone else who is experienced. Someone you care about and love! j/k uh Kinda like sex, except uh you only link at the arms and it probably is only half as fun when you get your chi sau cherry popped. But in all seriousness, the impression I get when I practice chi sau is that relaxation is the key and it is generally not good if you rely on your eyes to react to your opponent's bodily movement/attack. It's almost like a sixth sense, by increasing your sensitivity and awareness, you get better and better at predicting and knowing where and when your opponent will try to target next, and you learn to be one step ahead so that you always end up on top or in the advantageous position. No protection needed unless you are going full contact.

 

The practice (and the effectiveness) of chisau and sticky hands is very hard to describe in words, and there is no one standardized form of practice either.

 

 

[Shaolin]

Hi Jack!

 

Yes it's true that you can't really can learn Chi-Sao from books etc. But you might still try a few exercises from a book or tape such as Pak Sao, which is a first step toward Chi-Sao, If I can help let me know.

 

The purpose of Chi Sao, in short, is to train the student how to deal with an enemy who has interrupted your 'attack' For example if you throw a punch at someone's nose there is only a couple of things that can happen:

 

1. They get hit…keep hitting them

 

2. You miss and hit air…keep throwing punches

 

3. Your punch encounters an obstruction…..use Chi-Sao!

 

In case 3 the person has managed to get in the way of your hit with their hand or arm or body etc. Chi Sao trains automatic reflexes in response to *touch* so when a Wing Chun person encounters this type of resistance his hands know exactly how to take control of the enemy through energy manipulation and continue the attack...we stick and follow the opponent - we do not retract the strike once contact has been made. Shaolin systems especially Wing Chun always finish an attack and continue to stick with an enemy using everything they do against them.

 

You may be interested to know that in addition to Chi-Sao Wing Chun also has something called Chi-Gerk or 'Sticking Legs' Wing Chun also is quite good with it's feet and using kicks to ultimately control, trap and immobilize legs/feet. The theories of Wing Chun will conflict somewhat with your TKD as it uses Centerline attacks and control in both it's leg and hand techniques.

 

I am sure that you will find someone around where you live who can show you the basics or more (I'll take a look too.)

 

Jim

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-24 01:07 ]

[Jack]

Thanks very much Shaolin, that was a very interesting and informative post

 

Yes I've also heard of Pak-Sao and then double handed Pak-Sao or single handed Chi-Sao and steps up to learning Chi-sao, however I'm not too sure on how they work. Would you care to share any info?

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

[Shaolin]

Okay well if you really want to start leaning a little Wing Chun then one must learn how to do the punch found in Chasing Fists or the Chain Punch exercise.

 

Here is a gif of someone doing the exercise in question (not from my clan):

 

http://www.dallaswingtsun.com/punch.gif

 

It's important that the punches stay on the same vertical line: The Centerline and the punch going out rises slightly and always goes out over the one returning...it is said the fist returning 'drops' to allow room for the next one; this goes along with the idea of relaxing the arms. Also try to keep the elbows in and under the punch as much as possible. Also the striking area of the fist is the bottom three knuckles with the smallest one leading..the wrist tilted (or snapped) up and locked on impact.

 

First get in a Wing Chun horse:

 

Stand with both feet together - bend the knees and then open into a wide V by moving the toes as far apart as is comfortable by pivoting on the heels. Now to the reverse and move the heels apart by pivoting on the balls of your feet. You should now have the feet about shoulder width apart with toes pointed in. Lastly tuck your butt in by tightening your glutes...now you should be in some variation of a Yee Jee Kim young Ma...goat grabbing horse stance.

 

Now start the punch. Slowly at first more or less like in the gif. Place both fists on the Centerline one about a fist away from your chest the other extended out on the Centerline. Now try doing the punch like in the gif.

 

Here's some more info on the punch:

One of the training secrets of Wing Chun’s continuous Centerline punches, is that we train students to keep the arm totally relaxed. So we remove all possible tension from the arm. The classic metaphor the system has used for generations is 'A rock and a string' - the string being the arm and the rock being the fist, which should be tight. Unlike the punches I learned in Shotokan, these punches are not pulled short of full extension (to protect the elbow joint). Instead, the fist is allowed to go to FULL extension until the arm itself is fully extended (not hyper extended) e.g. the string is taut and the punch is actually pulled back a bit by the elasticity of the muscle and tendons assisting in retraction. Now, it is easier to do this since we do these punches with a vertical fist and the elbow is under the punch, but I think any punch can be trained this way once one learns to apply the proper energy. Once the proper energy is learned students practice this at full speed (often in the air) and train to make their arms as relaxed as the string so as to achieve max speed and power. Later, hip rotation is added for full whipping body power.

 

Some students in the beginning have a hard time differentiating between full extension and hyper extension. But if done with the correct energy one's arm will be straight at full extension (remember the rock and string) where as hyperextension is NOT straight. In order to get this right (max acceleration) the application of relaxed energy is critical and one must not think of pulling the punch short – we let the elasticity of the arm do this for us. This relaxed energy is also critical in case the puch should encounter resistance in which case one's energy must often change...

 

For more info check out this site:

 

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/

 

Feel free to ask more questions. I'll be around for a little while longer and back again in 24 hours after work.

 

Good luck,

 

Jim

 

_________________

 

 

Moy Yat Ving Tsun

 

Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu

 

 

 

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-27 01:16 ]