Why common arguments against grappling are wrong

[STR33T GUY]

Quotes come from here

 

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/kb.php?mode=article&k=121

Multiple opponents - Trouble most often runs in packs. If you

 

don't plan to face multiple opponents, you are not really training for self

 

defense. Seldom will a friend watch another friend be defeated without making

 

at least a token effort to join help. That is human nature, and ignoring

 

it is a dangerous mistake -- especially since a friend's help can often

 

be in the form of a bottle or a rock. Since you are involved on the ground

 

in a one-on-one contest with all your limbs engaged and limited mobility

 

you are vulnerable to a second attack from above. There is also the issue

 

-- in less reputable locations -- of spectators joining in and kicking you

 

both ... just for the fun of it.

 

Grappling isn’t just about being on the ground, it’s also about clinching. If you are fighting multiples and one grabs hold of you, that’s one clinch you really want to win. Grappling enables you to throw guy one to the ground while you stay on your feet to face guy two. So grappling is useful against multiples.

Furniture, curbs and other people - While the floor work itself

 

may not take a lot of room, going down usually does. Objects such as tables,

 

chairs and bystanders pose chances of serious injury if you fall onto them

 

-- especially if you have someone else's body weight driving you there.

 

I know of throws and takedowns that don’t require much room at all, and if “someone else's body weight driving you there” it’s obviously working for him.

Asphalt, rocks, bottles, etc. - Many "going to the ground"

 

techniques are designed to work on pads, mats and smooth floors. Seldom

 

do these conditions exist outside the dojo. A slap fall on asphalt will

 

not only tear up your hand, but it can result in a shattered bones. Hitting

 

concrete with another person landing on top of you is a painful -- often

 

fight stopping -- experience. Now you may think "that is the idea,"

 

but that is assuming that you are controlling the fall. A cagey fighter

 

might not let you land on top of him, and that makes it as much your problem

 

as his. Then there is the issue of bottles and glasses that you might land on.

 

While you might at first think, "there aren't glasses/bottles/etc laying on

 

the floor of the bar," that's under normal conditions, but if someone

 

tackles you and you run into another person or tip over a table, those items can

 

and will be knocked to the ground at the same speed as you.

 

I have won fights rolling asphalt and gravel. Sure I’d rather roll on a mat but I’d rather be punched with a 16 ounce glove too.

Without weapons - This is even more dangerous than assuming that

 

you will only be fighting one person at a time. Once weapons come into play,

 

it is no longer fighting, it's combat. The ground is the absolute *last*

 

place you want to be with an armed opponent.

 

After being hit with a weapon (I needed three stitches), I threw the guy so hard onto the ground the weapon went flying out of his hand. I then mounted him.

Rules - Although the UFC was touted as "no rules," or

 

more specifically "no holds barred," many of the more nasty and

 

brutal moves were banned. Until you have endured these moves, it is easy

 

to assume that you can "tough them out." Experience proves differently.

 

Many of these techniques are so savage that people don't believe others

 

would stoop so low -- and are therefore unprepared to handle them. This utterly

 

undermines the assertion of many grapplers that "Well, we can do them

 

too!"

 

Well this argument can be applied to striking too. But more to the point, I’ve won fights on the ground with no rules and both of us fighting dirty.

Not trying to kill each other - Grappling is probably best understood

 

as dominating your opponent. It is used to subdue and force him to submit. That

 

is a social function, it is not, however, combat. In combat, you are not trying

 

to prove anything, you are not trying to force compliance. You are trying to

 

kill him before he kills you. There are severe psychological differences in

 

intent. And you fight totally differently. A fight with a drunken friend that

 

you are trying to control (or prove he is out of line) is not the same as some

 

evil bastard coming at you with intent to kill you.

 

I don't know if anyone has ever had the intent to kill me, but if I what to kill somebody it will be easiest for me to do it on the ground (assuming I'm not armed).

[Gumbi]

I would love to destroy his argument, but I have no interest in going to that forum =)

 

Everyone of his assumptions and explanations is critically flawed.

[Nick_UKWC]

Want some fish with that chip on your shoulder?

[Master Jules]

I think Ill just sit back and see how this one unwinds.....lol

[VinnieDaChin]

i like it. to add to what he said- grappling, bjj in particular, has never claimed to help people with, say, multiple opponents. it only claimed to solve what they call the fundamental problem of martial arts- how a smaller physically inferior guy can beat a larger stronger more physically superior guy.

 

also- people say that although fights end up on the ground, they start standing so thats more important. personally, im more concerned with how the fight ends (preferably with me winning) than with how it starts, though dont think im discounting striking and standing either.

 

furthermore- even if youre against multiple opponents- suppose despite youre trying not to you end up on the ground. if that happened to me id want to be super good at grappling so that i can pull off a move- be it a sweep, escape, or break in five seconds so i can get back up. a guy whos never trained in ground fighting is much more likely to stay there and get punched, kicked, stomped, etc.

[STR33T GUY]

furthermore- even if youre against multiple opponents- suppose despite youre trying not to you end up on the ground. if that happened to me id want to be super good at grappling so that i can pull off a move- be it a sweep, escape, or break in five seconds so i can get back up. a guy whos never trained in ground fighting is much more likely to stay there and get punched, kicked, stomped, etc.

 

Yes!

[tufrthanu]

I would like to add that the term grappling simply refers to grabbing an opponent...no matter what your physical positions are. As to the fact that smaller guys can beat larger guys that occurs in striking arts as well...any art worth its salt has aspects that allow a smaller person to defeat a larger one. BTW have you seen some grapplers? I have a book with pictures of various classical Judo practioners and the european and american guys are huge and very well muscled. You are correct in your statement about what if you end up on the ground vinnie however...no matter what you do there I personally believe your supreme objective should be getting back to your feet...not necessarily winning the fight. It's kind of like the military maxim that says control the high ground. If you can defeat the opponent while regaining your feet fine...if not fine but regain your feet. Standing is the high ground. From that position you can fight or run.

[SevenStar]

As to the fact that smaller guys can beat larger guys that occurs in striking arts as well...any art worth its salt has aspects that allow a smaller person to defeat a larger one.

 

theoretically, yes. But the fact is, not everyone can make their arts work for them in such situations. Also, not all styles equip you do be able to do this in a short amount of time.

 

 

BTW have you seen some grapplers? I have a book with pictures of various classical Judo practioners and the european and american guys are huge and very well muscled.

 

sure there are - because we big guys are interested in judo also. however, one of my coaches at one time held a world ranking, and even though he's much smaller than me, can toss me around like a ragdoll.

[tufrthanu]

You missed the point. The point was that Judo or any other grappling art isn't solely for small people wanting to gain an advantage on large people and in fact alot of champion grapplers are very muscler due to the fact that there is so much grabbing involved. And it doesn't take long to teach someone the basics of striking. Those are really all you need anyway. From my viewpoint if I can't teach someone half my size to beat me with my own art I shouldn't be teaching.

[SevenStar]

champions are muscular because they have to be. judo despite the gentle overtone is a very violent art in competition. They do alot of cardio, bodyweight training, weight training, etc. - it's the nature of competition. I completely agree with what you said - it's not solely for smaller people looking to gain an advantage.

 

there is less leverage involved in striking. it will take a while for someone to develop enough power to take me out with leg kicks, head shots, etc. and it will take them even longer to develop the timing to hit precise areas like knees, groin, eyes, etc.and double that in schools that don't do alot of bagwork and sparring.

 

naturally, size will matter regardless of whether you are striking or grappling, however, in grappling, where you have to opportunity to control your opponent's balance, you might have a better chance.