complex, long karate style suggestion + other questions

[isshinryuka]

Exponential,

 

As a Christian, I do not have a problem with bowing to people in my dojo as it is meant as respect, not worship. However, I have read of dojos that require a bow to a goddess image prior to entering the dojo. I would choose not to train at that dojo. I think this is an example of what you mean when you say, "registering as a sign of worship in my head."

 

Don't worry about responses from people that don't/can't/won't understand about your convictions.

 

As far as anyone trying to define ki, good luck. That can be another whole can of worms. But the way I look at it, God made our bodies to do amazing things if we would just practice and learn how to use it. I think that is what ki is - practicing good techniques to the point of perfection - your whole body, mind and spirit come together during a technique. Some want to make ki mystical, when they do it, they cheat themselves of what they have accomplished through very hard work.

 

Note that many of the responses to your initial post really lack logic and are quick to make assumptions. Don't get baited.

 

For example: to suggest bowing has nothing do with religion is not accurate. Some dojos do get very involved with elements of Zen Buddhism, non-Biblical meditation and bowing to images. That is religion. Make sure you understand the instructor's philosophy prior to joining up.

 

Sauzin's post is particularly bothersome to me. Of course, I always try to remember this is really a poor way to communicate as we lose so much when we are not face to face. So let's go through some of his points with that in mind.

Oh man, I don't know why but this post really bothers me.

 

Where in Christianity does it say that you can't show physical signs of respect?

 

I don't think your initial post said anything about not wanting to show respect, but rather how to distinguish respect from worship.

No, scratch that question. You see, you can interpret what ever scripture you want to say whatever you want it to.

 

And when people do, you get cults. God meant the Bible to be understood and obeyed, not used as a book of suggestions open to interpretation.

But the second you interpret your religious teachings to mean that you shouldn't show respect to another human or to an art passed on by a lineage of disciplined artisans who have dedicated their lives and/or died to keep and make them available to you, you are crossing the line.

 

This is really bad. This makes me think Sauzin really got burned by a religious person or institution. Rather than respond to your post, he responds to a preconception.

If you were in my class or a class I was attending and you chose not to bow you would be asked to leave. Chances are you wouldn't get that far because the ego centralism, lack of respect, lack of vision, and illusions of grandeur that are prerequisites to having this problem would likely prevent you from walking in the door. And for this I am thankful. This is has nothing to do with your religion, it has everything to do with your attitude.

 

Your intial post did not indicate you had a problem showing respect. This response from Sauzin really reveals his hostility. To make such accusations based soley on someone's concern about bowing is irresponsible.

 

Anyway, expect persecution (rational and irrational) for your convictions. I enjoy my karate and I have excellent instructors. That is really key no matter which style you choose.

 

Best Regards

[Sauzin]

First off I would like to apologize for the unintended hostility in my first post. It's a sensitive subject, and I should have accounted for that.

 

However I will defend the assertions made in my first post. Bowing = respect. This is not new and is not something that any American can claim cultural ignorance to. Maybe 100 or 200 years ago this would be understandable. But by asking the question "is it OK not to bow", you are asking "Is it OK not to show respect." Did I assume you knew that bowing was a sign of respect. Yes I did. The same way I am assuming you know how to read. In fact I have known people who don't know how to read that could have told me what a bow was for.

 

Please don't claim not to have understood this most basic cultural fact. You seem very intelligent so it is obvious this is not the case. Heck, you corrected my spelling (which I am thankful for as it has always been a weak area of mine). It is likely that you wanted to know if you could get away with showing respect some other way. What I was trying to make clear was by doing so it would be disrespectful, presumptuous, and egotistic. My opinion is that just considering it would require as much.

 

You don't want an art involving the use of the word ki. OK now I'm curious. You know what the word means. Why don't you like it?

 

I have to say that I disagree with the comment that not wanting to bow should not affect one's ability to practice karate. The ability to show respect and humility is fundamental to the practice of a martial art. In fact these aspects may protect you physically more effectively then any technique taught. Without the art taught with these things you don't have a defensive art you have a let's go out and get ourselves killed art. That's not what karate is about. And no, I don’t think respect and humility could be taught in karate without bowing. The same ego that prevents you from bowing would prevent these things from being learned.

 

I understand associating bowing with worship. You respect your faith thus you bow your head in prayer and worship. It shows humility before God. These things I understand, but why should you not show humility before your fellow man? Why should humility in an art conflict with a religion? Traditionally, Karate is to religion as a tennis lesson is to religion. Think of it as going to learn tennis from an Okinawan coach. And by the way he would likely shake your hand because he respects your culture and a sport born of it. Why hesitate to do the same for a treasured art? Why are your associations with the worship of your religion restricting in this manner? Why don't your beliefs in fact encourage you to bow?

 

These are honest questions by the way, I don't mean to flame you. I in fact know quite a bit about Christianity and have been avidly Christian for most of my life. What I am doing is trying to understand your attitude and your application of your religion towards martial arts. You claim I make assumptions out of ignorance, please help me understand.

Edited January 6, 2005 by Sauzin

[Sauzin]

One further thing that I want to make clear. I do not mean to insult the Christians of this community who I most honestly have a great deal of respect for. Nor am I attempting to persecute anyone. I think this has a lot less to do with the fact that he is Christian and a lot more to do with his attitude and application which could be the same given any religion.

[isshinryuka]

Sauzin,

 

You ended the last sentence of your reply to Exponential with, "You claim I make assumptions out of ignorance, please help me understand." But I think you are referring to my post? Not sure. Don't want to jump in if you weren't responding to me.

 

Best Regards

[Sauzin]

I am open to anyone's comments. Please feel free to jump in.

[isshinryuka]

However I will defend the assertions made in my first post. Bowing = respect. This is not new and is not something that any American can claim cultural ignorance to. Maybe 100 or 200 years ago this would be understandable. But by asking the question "is it OK not to bow", you are asking "Is it OK not to show respect." Did I assume you knew that bowing was a sign of respect. Yes I did. The same way I am assuming you know how to read. In fact I have known people who don't know how to read that could have told me what a bow was for.

 

1. Is it bowing = respect and worship or rather is it bowing = respect or worship? Exponential is probably in the same boat I was when I started karate. I knew how bowing was a sign of respect in Oriental cultures. I also knew that in my dojo bowing was also done toward the picture of the founder of my style. And some dojos required a bow to a hindu water goddess. So I really had to understand and ask a lot of questions about bowing in the dojo, how it was perceived, and how it applied. Because bowing can be a form of worship and not only do I not want to do it, I don't want it even perceived as worship. There is nothing wrong with simply asking and trying to understand.

 

2. No where did Exponential communicate he did not want to show respect. In fact, he says he is searching for a style and master. Pretty respectful to use the word master.

Please don't claim not to have understood this most basic cultural fact. You seem very intelligent so it is obvious this is not the case. Heck, you corrected my spelling (which I am thankful for as it has always been a weak area of mine). It is likely that you wanted to know if you could get away with showing respect some other way. What I was trying to make clear was by doing so it would be disrespectful, presumptuous, and egotistic. My opinion is that just considering it would require as much.

 

1. Logic fallacy in the first sentence. Called "begging the question."

 

2. Either you are completely contradicting yourself or I am just not getting your points. At the beginning you said, "But by asking the question "is it OK not to bow", you are asking "Is it OK not to show respect." Then later we get, "It is likely that you wanted to know if you could get away with showing respect some other way." So which is it? Either you accuse Exponential of being too prideful or you acknowledge he was just seeing if there were options to bowing.

 

3. Exponential is called disrespectful, presumptuous and egotistical for "just considering" options in an area where he is a complete newby? Pretty harsh. Could you examine your posts and conclude you did not exhibit those very qualities?

You don't want an art involving the use of the word ki. OK now I'm curious. You know what the word means. Why don't you like it?

 

This is a sucker question. We all know how many views there are on ki. We all know it is a hot topic. It is obvious why a Christian new to martial arts would have strong reservations about ki if the only explanations of ki he had been exposed to involved the mother earth power mumbo jumbo.

I have to say that I disagree with the comment that not wanting to bow should not affect one's ability to practice karate. The ability to show respect and humility is fundamental to the practice of a martial art. In fact these aspects may protect you physically more effectively then any technique taught. Without the art taught with these things you don't have a defensive art you have a let's go out and get ourselves killed art. That's not what karate is about. And no, I don’t think respect and humility could be taught in karate without bowing. The same ego that prevents you from bowing would prevent these things from being learned.

 

1. It really could be argued that the show of respect and humility is not fundamental to the martial arts. No time for detail here, but basically the Okinawans learned karate to fight for their lives, not to improve self or learn humility. The additions of the bow, self-improvement philosophies and humility thing really came in to fashion after Japan and Okinwa left the feudal era.

 

2. Karate used to be a go out and kill or get killed art.

 

3. Respect and humility can be taught without bowing. The bow is a wonderful tool, maybe the best tool for teaching respect and humility. But to make such a blanket statement about about how respect and humility can be taught is - egotistical.

I understand associating bowing with worship. You respect your faith thus you bow your head in prayer and worship. It shows humility before God. These things I understand, but why should you not show humility before your fellow man? Why should humility in an art conflict with a religion? Traditionally, Karate is to religion as a tennis lesson is to religion. Think of it as going to learn tennis from an Okinawan coach. And by the way he would likely shake your hand because he respects your culture and a sport born of it. Why hesitate to do the same for a treasured art? Why are your associations with the worship of your religion restricting in this manner? Why don't your beliefs in fact encourage you to bow?

 

1. You argue against yourself here. One could easily ask if I should use the same method of reverence for a man that I use for my God.

 

2. Ouch, a very bad analogy. When one considers the the origins of karate, the mystique of karate, the manner karate is presented on TV, and legends of karate, then I don't think tennis compares. Karate is frequently associated with Zen Buddhism. Tennis is not.

 

3. You compare bowing to shaking hands as if you have forgotten bowing is associated with worship. Shaking hands is in no way ever considered an act of worship to an Okinawan.

These are honest questions by the way, I don't mean to flame you. I in fact know quite a bit about Christianity and have been avidly Christian for most of my life. What I am doing is trying to understand your attitude and your application of your religion towards martial arts. You claim I make assumptions out of ignorance, please help me understand.

 

He doth protest too much - Fat Albert (I think)

 

Best Regards

[smr]

I think the bowing issue has been inflated to something more important than what it is. Bowing is a sign of respect. It's not religious. The simple act of bowing should not be taken in offense.

 

On a personal note, one day when I am instructor, I will not require nor will I ask my students to bow to me or call me anything other than by my first name. Children may be asked to call me Mr. because that is how they are required to act in school. In my opinion it is pretentious to ask or require somebody else to respect me in that manner. When a new student joins the school who does not know me from a stranger, how is he supposed to respect me? In most schools he would be required to bow and call me sensei. He would simply be going through the motions. I would prefer to earn my students' respect by being a good teacher. My students can respect me by being courteous and giving it their all.

[Sauzin]

Now that’s a nice rebuttal.

 

First let me point out a couple of things that I think you missed and as a result drew some premature conclusions.

 

Bow = Respect. Respect can be shown to God. Respect can shown to your fellow men. Respect can be shown to your pet hamster. Of course there are differences in the level and manner of this respect. Basically I am arguing that a fundamental principle such as respect can have multiple applications as can the means by which you show them. I don't think you are disagreeing with me on this point. I mean it seems pretty self explanatory that associating a culturally universal means of showing respect with only one application (respect to God) is not doing anyone any good.

 

Alright now I've got to break out the quotes:

2. No where did Exponential communicate he did not want to show respect. In fact, he says he is searching for a style and master. Pretty respectful to use the word master.

Bowing is a sign of respect. He stated that he was hesitant to show a sign of respect. Now I will admit that it is my opinion and prejudgment made based on past experiences with people of a similar mindset that leads me to believe that considering the idea of not bowing requires disrespectful, presumptuous, and egotistical qualities. I have no facts to prove this. This is my personal experience and I would love to be proven wrong. I apologize for the offense. Often I should keep my opinions to myself and I fail to do so.

1. Logic fallacy in the first sentence. Called "begging the question."

 

2. Either you are completely contradicting yourself or I am just not getting your points. At the beginning you said, "But by asking the question "is it OK not to bow", you are asking "Is it OK not to show respect." Then later we get, "It is likely that you wanted to know if you could get away with showing respect some other way." So which is it? Either you accuse Exponential of being too prideful or you acknowledge he was just seeing if there were options to bowing.

I like that. "Begging the question." Please understand I haven't attended a debate class so I am at a lack for proper terminology.

 

Here's the deal. His question conveyed the meaning "is it OK not to show respect" what he probably intended to convey was "if you could get away with showing respect some other way". At least that was my guess. I can't read minds so I really don't know.

This is a sucker question. We all know how many views there are on ki. We all know it is a hot topic. It is obvious why a Christian new to martial arts would have strong reservations about ki if the only explanations of ki he had been exposed to involved the mother earth power mumbo jumbo.

 

Other then it being a sucker question I agree with you completely. Pointing this out was one of the intents of my original post. Call Ki whatever you like but to say it doesn't exist is like saying bananas don't exist just because I like to call then nanoos instead. And to say that you don't want to work out somewhere because they don't call it nanoos is just plain ridiculous to me. I wanted to find out how he has justified this.

2. Ouch, a very bad analogy. When one considers the origins of karate, the mystique of karate, the manner karate is presented on TV, and legends of karate, then I don't think tennis compares. Karate is frequently associated with Zen Buddhism. Tennis is not.

 

3. You compare bowing to shaking hands as if you have forgotten bowing is associated with worship. Shaking hands is in no way ever considered an act of worship to an Okinawan.

You're right it wasn't the best analogy. It wasn't bad but didn't fit as well as it should have. Lets compare Karate to painting. Since man knew what to do with his fingers, man has painted God's image. Man continues to paint religious subjects and use painting for religions means. Some of the greatest painters ever were deeply religions as well. But when one takes a painting class they generally don't have to worry about being asked to break out the sacrament. This is because painting, while it has a history of being associated with a religion, isn't innately religions. Same holds true with Karate. Sure there were great karate practitioners who where Buddhist. Chinese artists who were Hindu. Sure they brought their religion with them as they taught, but the subject itself, Karate is not religious. No more then painting.

1. It really could be argued that the show of respect and humility is not fundamental to the martial arts. No time for detail here, but basically the Okinawans learned karate to fight for their lives, not to improve self or learn humility. The additions of the bow, self-improvement philosophies and humility thing really came in to fashion after Japan and Okinawa left the feudal era.

 

2. Karate used to be a go out and kill or get killed art.

 

3. Respect and humility can be taught without bowing. The bow is a wonderful tool, maybe the best tool for teaching respect and humility. But to make such a blanket statement about how respect and humility can be taught is - egotistical.

 

Every dojo is different. There is certainly historical reference to Karateka who did run down people to test their art. They historically had a difficult time finding teachers and of course history doesn't mention the ones who died right off the bat, but they've existed and they've taught even created styles. Not knowing you're style's lineage I can't sit here and tell you that isn't what your karate is about. I can tell you one thing. That's not what my karate and its lineage has ever been about. Survival, yes. But survival means knowing how to respect people. Bowing as it is today was introduced by Japan, but bowing as a sign of respect to royalty and to elders is so old it cannot be historically traced. You want a short life in Okinawa 300 years ago. Choose not to bow to a royal guard. 100 years ago, try not showing humility to a police officer. You'd be lucky to escape with your life. That was the culture and it was taught in the dojo most of all. This is where you learned why respect was well earned and why humility was a life skill. At least this is the heritage I was taught.

 

Also a casual bow isn't any more an act of worship to an Okinawan then a handshake. Again it’s the basic principle thing. Respect is respect, whether it's used for worship or human decency. Just because it is used in worship doesn't mean it is worship.

 

I do protest a lot. This means a lot to me. Just like it means a lot to you.

[Exponential]

Thanks, Sauzin, for discussing this is a nicer way then you started. ANd thanks, isshinryuka, for some great points you made on my behalf. I think I'll quietly watch this post unfold for now as I don't have much to say. XD

 

Oh, and smr: I like your views on that. Cool stuff.

[isshinryu5toforever]

bowing has nothing to do with worship in this arena. It is a lot like Americans shaking hands. There is a traditional etiquette to the Japanese bow. There is the full 90 degree, eyes downward, bow signifying deep apology. There is a short bow of greeting. The kneeling bows are where the religious connotations can come in. However, in a standard kneeling bow, it is once again a show of utmost respect. It would follow something like a tea ceremony before a duel. Or in China a series of three bows where the head touches the ground from the knelt position might be done out of respect to a deceased person. These bows have nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with respect. I am Christian as well, and if you take the time to study the culture you will soon realize the bowing you are doing has nothing to do with Japanese religion, it is a way to show respect and greeting. I am not slandering your decision, I am simply trying to give you insight into the decision you are pondering. It is important to know that the world of traditional Okinowan and Japanese martial arts is different than that of the American world. This goes for Korean and Chinese martial arts as well. Maybe I understand better because I have studied far eastern culture, history, and philosophy and happen to be Korean as well. Another general point to ponder, is that no matter what style you choose, there will be a ki (no pun intended) element with the advanced levels. The flow of energy is important to your ability and power in striking. This is why someone can break a brick with their knuckles barely an inch from the surface. Understanding the flow of energy throughout the body can help your health and is necessary to your martial arts training. If you never understand the flow of your energy, you will never understand the martial arts. If you can't deal with this fact, you can practice, but you will always be just good. You will never be great. You will also never be able to realize your full potential. Trust me, many realizations will come to you as you develop as a student of the martial arts. Please, do not take these comments to heart, I only wish to share with you my observences. I am only 18, but I have been studying since I was 5. However, maybe someone with far greater wisdom and insight can better assist you. If you would like to e-mail me my mail is wiaznatnyu@hotmail.com Any questions, or general statements are welcome.