Sticking hands - for WC only?

[pvwingchun]

BTW a good WC instructor will never say to you "that's not how WC does it." He will teach the forms and the principles and guide you along, teaching you what a WC combat response would be teaching you to meld the two into the proper response. I frequently have students show me things they have learned and I tell them how it either does or doesn't fit WC principle.

[Red J]

Question: Is the practice of (chi sau, sticking hands, sticking legs, etc; etc; etc; whatever you wan't to call it) exclusive to WC stylists only?

 

If no, what other styles do it?

 

Either way, what would be your opinion on a non WC stylist taking private lessons to learn chi sau without getting any of the WC forms etc;?

 

I did it last night. I take Shaolin Kempo. You can probably see this exercise in many MA styles especially ones with Chinese influence.

 

I don't see any problem with getting privates in it as it will probably compliment any style you do. It will help with your balance, softness, and understanding how opponents move.

[pvwingchun]

I personally would be very leery of any WC instructor who would take and teach you just Chi Sau. You simply cannot take WC Chi Sau and add it into another system and call it WC Chi Sau. At that point it simply becomes a drill in sticking and sensitivity which many arts have why not just go to one of them because you won't gain insightful knowledge of WC Chi Sau if all you care to learn is chi sau. To properly understand and train WC Chi Sau you must first have the knolwedge of the principles of WC if you do not then you do not know or understand what it is that chi sau is teaching.

[Straight Blast]

Jkd does Chi Sau aswell.

 

A lot of the attacks in jkd come from the WC system,more specificlly trappings as well.

 

Chi Sau(sticky Hands) are just normally drills to feel how much or less energy your opponent is putting in their arms for you to strike or know when to defend.It can be difficult at times...since some bastards make the circles bigger for them to strike easier without you noticing it..damn i need to go work on that more

[Hudson]

I want to learn chi sau because it looks like an excellent way to train sensitivity and counterfighting, be it with wing chun style blocks or anything else.

 

I don't think chi sau makes great fighting skills - I do think it is good for opponent sensitivity. As far as "rolling into that range", you're absolutely right, but at one point or another, they have to come to the only range you can really fight from - contact range. You seem to think I want chi sau as an ends to all means - I just want a more fluid idea of counterfighting and trapping in a punch range by means of sticking hands. Would you agree or disagree chi sau is an excellent way to develop that?

 

At what stage does a student in WC begin Chi Sau anyway?

[pvwingchun]

This is from an article on our website.

 

"I will start by mentioning that hands on training is the most needed, and in many cases the most neglected in many schools. Many use chi sau as a means of training combat efficiency; unfortunately great chi sau doesn’t correlate to great combat skills. In fact nothing could be further from the truth. This doesn’t mean that much needed skills aren’t obtained through chi sau; there are many skills to be gained through this exercise. Some being, sensitivity, understanding of lines, angles, forward energy, and absorption of energy, redirection and the list goes on. In reality no fight begins in a chi sau scenario, and not to mention chances are your opponent doesn’t play in the chi sau rules anyway. Free flow fighting must be taught, this starting from a distance of each other and with no pre-arranged drills."

 

Yes I would agree to a point but without the WC priciples and foundation you can't learn chis sau. You see to learn what you want to learn you simply need hands on training with lots of sparring and free flow fighting. Chi Sau isn't just about sensitivity and trapping.

 

Chi Sau training doesn't start for over a year this isn't to say that there isn't other types of sensitivity training.

[Drunken Monkey]

.....i would say that chi sau training begins with sil nim tao.....

 

but before you learn that, you have to get your punching right.

 

then as you learn the form, you do a few drills here and there.

 

then you learn/practice single hand chi sau.

 

then you learn/practice a few more drills.

 

then you learn to roll in poon sau.

 

after your rolling is tight, then you start to introduce the drills and other things from the form.

 

just doing chi sau isn't a good idea.

 

learning chi sau outside of a wing chun environment is an even worse idea.

 

in the case of jkd concepts/jun fan gung fu teaching chi sau,

 

well, that's slightly different because it isn't taught as an also but taught as a how other people do it.

 

i.e it is taught side by side things like the flow drills from silat,

 

as well as the singular techniques from the base wing chun, except they don't call it wing chun.....

 

slightly different.

 

i mean, for the moment that they are rolling they are effectively doing wing chun, despite what they might want to argue.

 

 

anyway.

 

i would also probably argue that chi sau is maybe as much about learning to maintain elbow position as it is about sensitivity.

 

i was taught to roll as soon as i had got the first form to an ok standard.

 

(by that i mean, at the point where i didn't have to think about what to do next and could begin to see where to take things from).

[Hudson]

just doing chi sau isn't a good idea.

 

learning chi sau outside of a wing chun environment is an even worse idea.

 

Why? I'm not challenging your opinion, just wishing you had expanded a little more.

[delta1]

I once made the mistake of trying some sensitivity drills with a few TKDers I was working out with. Didn't go over too well!

 

However, many systems do sensitivity drills similar to chi sao. But the drills are adapted to work with their concepts, not copied from another style. I think this is what the WCers here are trying to get across. If you do not have a solid grounding in principles and concepts, and cannot modify the exercise to work with your system, it will do you verry little good.

 

I've done sensitivity drills similar to chi sao in Taiji, Kenpo, several FMA's, and with other stylists. But they all had their own methods. The drills were designed to work with their systems and the principles, concepts and methods they emphasize.

[Drunken Monkey]

whoa....

 

no need to be so defensive.

 

i'm not going to bite your head off for asking a simple, honest 'why?'

 

I say it is a bad/worse idea because the rolling part is a test of elbow position and structure.

 

in wing chun chi sau/poon sau, you 'attack' when there is a 'weakness'

 

i.e when the other guy's elbow or something is in the wrong place.

 

to do chi sau correctly and effectively and hence benefit the most from it, you would have to be doing a style that uses elbow positions and bridge arm concepts in the same way that wing chun does.

 

that's kinda why kempo and some other chinese styles have similar exercises.

 

that's also why jkd does it; because of its wing chun origins and because of its use of elbow positions.

 

in short:

 

almost every movement in wing chun begins with elbow position.

 

chi sau tests/trains elbow positions.

 

to do chi sau you correctly you have to know about and be good with your elbow positions.

 

to be good with your elbow positions, you have to learn the movements.

 

hence, chi sau without wing chun doesn't work.

 

for a start,

 

if i am to teach you to roll in poon sau, i first have to show you three hand/bridge positions anyway;

 

these being tan sau, fook sau and bong sau.

 

AND

 

if i'm gong to be teaching these three, i will have to teach you how these flow into each other as well as all of the other moves.

 

before you know it, i've spent two months teaching you the first form and making you do drills....

 

in other words, i'd be teaching you wing chun to get to the chi sau/poon sau.