Joe Lewis on Bruce Lee

[Hansen]

Kickbox - Since you are acquainted with the story, here's the version I heard from two independent individuals both of whom are VERY prominent in the JKD community. Lewis came to pay a rude visit to Bruce. Lewis bangs on Bruce's door just before dinner and Bruce answers it. There was a screen door separating the two men. Lewis begins yelling and accusing Bruce of making advances toward his wife, to which Bruce was taken aback. Bruce opens the door and grabs Lewis' ear, drags him into the kitchen (still holding his ear) and yanks him in front of Linda Lee. He demands that Lewis tell Linda what he just told him. He then shouts at him for coming to his house during dinner time and making an accusation like that and trying to break up his marriage. Lewis continued to yell but didn't have the balls to make a move. Bruce grew more and more angry, so Linda got in between the two men. After a few words were exchanged, Bruce then kicked him out of his house and that was the last he ever saw of Lewis. Whether you wish to believe the story or not is up to you. All I can say is that I heard the same story by two independent individuals. One of the individuals was very close to Bruce himself, and the stories by both individuals matched. In fact, the other person received "confirmation" from the Lewis' camp, according to him. Although he did say that the Lewis camp told it as if "Bruce was hiding behind Linda", as you stated, but he said there were too many holes in the Lewis version to believe that account. What can I say? I wasn't there and was not personally acquainted with Lewis or Bruce. But the sources are very reliable.

I have never read Bruce ever stating that Joe Lewis was the best fighter of all time. If he did, it may have been just to indirectly promote himself, which he has been inclined to do. That's why he also had Norris in his film, Way of the Dragon. If he could be seen as the instructor to this "great fighter" then it only made him look better. Regardless of what he said in public, I do know for a fact that in private, he thought highly of Mike Stone. And many original students of Bruce that I've spoken with all concurred that the only tournament fighter of the day that Bruce respected as a fighter was Mike Stone. Lewis was never mentioned and I do know he considered Norris a "paper tiger". Too many congruent views from different individuals to believe the story about Lewis being the greatest in Bruce's eyes.

Second, I know for a fact that Lewis, Stone, and Norris all paid Bruce, at least for some part of their time together. I have seen actual account records which Bruce kept of his students. Whether they paid for their whole duration as student-teacher is another matter. I don't know about that. But if you are right and Lewis is being misquoted then I have nothing further to say. That has been known to happen with the media, and it would make more sense of things. But I do know for a fact that Norris has publically denigrated Bruce by claiming he was only a movie- martial artist. He has even stated such on the Letterman show. But he coincidentally fails to mention the time when Bruce challenged him to fight, after Norris made a few insulting remarks in public against Bruce. After backing down, Norris wrote an apologetic letter, which is now in the hands of Dan Inosanto.

And since he has been brought up, Norris is a complete fraud. First of all, he is a NON-CONTACT karate champion. That's about as meaningful to real life as being a kata champion. He was not (and still is not) a fighter. Second, he tells people that he is responsible for Bruce's incorporation of high kicks. First of all, Bruce did not heavily promote the use of high kicks in actual fighting, though he still felt they had a place when the time or situation was right. One of his favorite kicks was a low (to the knee) side kick. However, I have seen actual video footage of Bruce, taken in 1959 in Hong Kong, where he is performing high kicks and jumping kicks. This was years before he met Norris or even knew who he was. Also, Bruce was such an avid student of martial arts that he trained with guys like Jhoon Rhee and many northern Chinese stylists as well. Both make extensive use of kicks, including high kicks. So I find it hard to accept that Norris made any contribution to Bruce's kicking or thought process about kicking. From what it appears to me, Norris is just making up or distorting an incident to promote himself, to make it seem like he contributed in some manner to Bruce's JKD/Jun Fan expression. But it's all hogwash.

MenteReligeuse - You look down on Bruce compared to Lewis and Norris because you state that the latter two were tournament fighters, while Bruce was not. However, you fail to note that during that time period all tournaments were non-contact. By the early seventies some semi-contact tournaments came into being along with some limited full contact competitions. But it wasn't until around 1973/74 that full contact fighting came into any notable existence. Bruce was dead by then. Norris was a champion of non-contact fighting. He was not a contact fighter. Same with Lewis until around 1970 (I think) when full contact competitions started breaking in. But unlike boxing, there's no money in full contact martial arts and Bruce was the sole breadwinner in his house with 2 children. Besides Bruce was heavily pursuing acting by that time, and most would've considered him too "over the hill" to compete by the time full contact tournaments were available. But if you know anything about Bruce, you would know that he has spoken in favor of full contact fighting long before there was MMA. He has been extremely vocal on this matter for years. And he laughed and ridiculed (even openly) non-contact and semi-contact tournaments. That's why he was not in any of these competitions. He thought they were jokes. That's why he studied boxing, wrestling, and muay Thai, but not karate. Even the full contact fights of the day were a joke. No elbowing, no kneeing, no headbutting, and no grappling. And if you've ever seen an American kickboxing tournament, it is horrible to watch. Basically, it would turn into very poorly executed boxing matches by second rate fighters, so the rules mandated that the fighters perform a certain minimum number of kicks per round. It was that stupid, and like any burgeoning competition, the early fighters were not very good. But unlike Norris, Bruce was in at least one full contact tournament. This was the Interschool Boxing Championships in Hong Kong where he KO'd the two-year reigning champion.

You also state that Bruce admitted that many western competitors could beat him. I’d like to know where you read such statements. Please post the specific citation where you read that (or video) and I will go out of my way to purchase an original copy. And I will post my findings on this cite. I am not aware of any such statement being made by Bruce himself. Perhaps someone claimed he said that? I find it hard to believe simply because Bruce was such an arrogant and cocky man, according to everyone who knew him. But I am willing to explore that possibility, if you can show proof.

[Hansen]

Menjo - There were people who challenged Bruce. Some of the fights and challenges have been written about by various biographers on Bruce Lee. However, it is interesting to note that the guys who are now talking behind Bruce's back today were not the guys who dared to challenge him. Instead, some were even his students. That's what makes their negative statements and comments so ridiculous and unbelievable. They're all tough guys now that Bruce is no harm or threat to them. But none of them dared to speak out or challenge Bruce to his face while he was alive.

[Menjo]

Menjo - There were people who challenged Bruce. Some of the fights and challenges have been written about by various biographers on Bruce Lee. However, it is interesting to note that the guys who are now talking behind Bruce's back today were not the guys who dared to challenge him. Instead, some were even his students. That's what makes their negative statements and comments so ridiculous and unbelievable. They're all tough guys now that Bruce is no harm or threat to them. But none of them dared to speak out or challenge Bruce to his face while he was alive.

O yea i forgot i agree, before this fourm i didn't know however that bruce lee taught classes...

[Kickbox]

Hansen,

Of the people you mention, Stone, Lee, Lewis and Norris I pick Chuck Norris for best all round. You may have heard that Norris is a black belt in Machado BJJ as well as master of his own TSD syste. Let's face it guys like Norris and lewis were persued by many masters to become their disciple or convert to their system. Bruce lee knew it was in his best interest to affilliate his art with known champions.

The Lewis saga is confusing. on the one hand lewis was the best fighter of the bunch. He seemed to recognize Lee as his mentor. Still i can find interview after interview in which he talks trash about the little dragon.The 1970 kickboxing was anything goes. the guys even wore tennis shoes! One account from Official Karate said that Lewis faced a 6'8'' 280 lb black belt champion who kneeded him in the chest before Lewis unleashed a JKD hook punch in the second round to knock the guy out. Remember the first UFC? The ref didn't know what to call. Same for the first few kickboxing bouts. Anything that the ref didn't stop counted!

It's easy to look at todays' champs like Cung Le, for example, and say they could have killed Lewis in full contact. But the fact is lewis was the "Cung Le" of his time and he had no competition.

As a person I think Chuck Norris is the people's champ. As far as lewis versus lee. I go with the big man with actual fights under his belt. As far as ledgens Bruce Lee will always be king. Lee is more popular today then when he was alive.

[Jbone1]

First off, great thread and very informative. I have been trying to do a lot of reading about these great Martial Artist, but it's sad because egoes still get in the way of the truth. No one speaks the truth, though Chuck did mention in his book about how his matches where at first. But I'm sure I read he did have contact matches. He states times where he's hurt others and he got hurt. He also clearly speaks of beating Joe Lewis 3-4 times. Chuck speaks as though they didn't have any hard feelings toward each other either it was just competitiveness. Bruce did think it was stupid how tournaments where though he did support by showing up to many. Bruce actually did contact with his students because he created those jkd gloves that have multiple uses.(I have a pair )

And since he has been brought up, Norris is a complete fraud. First of all, he is a NON-CONTACT karate champion. That's about as meaningful to real life as being a kata champion. He was not (and still is not) a fighter. Second, he tells people that he is responsible for Bruce's incorporation of high kicks. First of all, Bruce did not heavily promote the use of high kicks in actual fighting, though he still felt they had a place when the time or situation was right. One of his favorite kicks was a low (to the knee) side kick. However, I have seen actual video footage of Bruce, taken in 1959 in Hong Kong, where he is performing high kicks and jumping kicks. This was years before he met Norris or even knew who he was. Also, Bruce was such an avid student of martial arts that he trained with guys like Jhoon Rhee and many northern Chinese stylists as well. Both make extensive use of kicks, including high kicks. So I find it hard to accept that Norris made any contribution to Bruce's kicking or thought process about kicking. From what it appears to me, Norris is just making up or distorting an incident to promote himself, to make it seem like he contributed in some manner to Bruce's JKD/Jun Fan expression. But it's all hogwash.

I agree and it's sad because in Chucks book he claimed to have gotten Bruce to use high kicks. He said for someone to not use them often Bruce easily picked them up. Great post Hansen you have a lot of inside info. I say this in my most humble opinion about Bruce. I feel that a lot of MA where and still are to this day jealous of Bruce. Why? Because he got so much media and recognition as a MA. The thing is Bruce worked hard to make his name memorable. It wasn't about money or claiming to be the best, it was about expressing himself and letting the world know you can do it to. It's sad those Bruce touched spoke things about him, challenged him, and claimed he wasn't that great all because of the hype the media gave him. It's like Lebron James, he's great but not as good as the media hype, so a lot of basketball fans don't like him. For what? Simply because the media overhypes him.

That's what happened to Bruce from his death to today. There are so many unfinished things in his life, from his book, movies, training, teaching, and writings. The myths and the legacy grew and many things became false and stories changed to make him sound like he wasn't human. But when someone says Bruce wasn't that good because he didn't compete, tell them who was the one who trained 90% reaction of real situations? Who was the one who trained to take you out as quickly as possible? Jeet Kune Do=The way of the intercepting fist and Bruce understood at 5'7'' 135-145 depending on his training at the time, if someone threatened his life that was bigger, he was ready to die.

So you tell me, would you challenge someone whos ready to fight to death or a champion whos bound by rules in most of his encounters? One last point Bruce never claimed he could or could not beat this person or that person. For instance, while Muhammad Ali was practicing Bruce followed along with him outside the ring. He mirrored his movements and someone asked if he could take Ali. Bruce only said, see this little Chinese hand and look at his. He never said yes or no to those type of questions because he only thought of the real, the actual no rules or boundries encounters. There wouldn't only be punching allowed so you choose the winner. Bruce Lees impact changed the way MA, weight training, boxing, MA movies, and other things are today and since his death. Few people at his time trained the way he did with weights and blending styles and systems. Jim Kelly and Chuck were two that I know blended styles during his time. So when people disrespect they need to read about Bruce before getting upset because he's the biggest name in MA.

[Kickbox]

Jbonel1,

What the competitors and champions always say is "they put it on the line, took the lumps and tested their courage under fire". There is some truth there. I have heard some say "I could have earned a college degree", or "I could have shot a hole in 1", or "I could have gone out with the prom queen".. I mean there are many excuses including "I could have fought and won". When the champions like Stone, Norris and Lewis say"Bruce never fought" they mean only Bruce never fought in tournaments. Then you have the group that feel the need to give excuses for Bruce like "He was too good/fast/deadly etc.".

Chuck Norris never fought in any full contact/kickboxing matches either. But at one time Norris was the undisputed champion. If the matches between Chuck and Joe were full contact then the score would more likely be 4-0 for Lewis. I still hold Chuck Norris in high regard because he is a man of character who gives to others and puts others first. I would follow him as the best role model. Bruce's life style led to an early grave. Joe Lewis was the champ but he never developed an organization and his movie career crashed plus I hear he now has health issues from the fast paced lifestyle. I wouldn't pick either Joe or Bruce as a role model except they were two great martial artists.

[Hansen]

Hi Kickbox - You are correct that Bruce Lee was not a tournament competitor. But guys like Norris (and possibly Lewis, unless he's being misquoted) and others have translated that to imply that he could not fight. But this is not true. Bruce Lee was a fighter and geared his art toward street fighting, not sport fighting. He has stated such on more than one occasion. He has openly encouraged biting, eye gouging, groin kicks and grabs, fish hooking, clawing at the face, hair pulling, and finger breaking. All of these are illegal tactics in sport fighting. And he was well aware that because of his smaller size that he might need to resort to such tactics with aggression, speed, and precision to defeat a larger fighter. He was not stupid. He knew his own limitations and tried hard to overcome them by weight lifting and taking in high caloric foods and supplements. But as for him not being a fighter, all my sources say different. He was an excellent street fighter, who could actually pull off in real combat what he taught to his students. There are a number of individuals that have actually witnessed street fights that he was in. And from what I've been told, once Bruce knew that a confrontation was going to become physical he always initiated the first hit and didn't stop until his opponent was knocked out or gave up.

In fact, at his schools, he fought as often as his schedule permitted, and he made all of his students fight (if they wished to progress). None of the so called martial arts schools of the day engaged in such practice. During the 70s and early 80s Inosanto's Torrance academy took on this same approach and held fight nights. It was MMA every Tuesday and Thursday. And from those I've spoken with, almost every single fight there resulted in someone sustaining injuries - broken ribs, broken noses, missing teeth, injured hands, knocked out, etc. Nothing lethal or requiring hospitalization, but still these men were trying to hurt one another. Eventually, Inosanto pulled back on the intensity of these fight nights, possibly because of the fear of legal repercussions or simply because of the negative reputation JKD started developing, being associated with thugs and jerks, for a while. I don't know the exact reason, though I've heard many. In any case, to say or imply that Bruce Lee was not a fighter is utterly false.

I do admit that Bruce would be at a notable size disadvantage compared to Lewis if they fought one another, but what you also fail to note is that while Lewis was a striker, Bruce was a complete fighter and continually evolving. He was studying grappling under Gene LeBell and had a silat instructor whom he kept in touch with. From people who've seen him grapple, they stated that Bruce became quite proficient at takedowns and submissions. And pound for pound he was a good wrestler. So I think Lewis would've lost in a Vale Tudo style fight against Bruce. As with Royce in the early UFCs, Bruce would've taken the fight to the ground and ended it there. But pure striking, possibly Lewis may have won but not because of superior skill. It would've been due to superior size (he can hit harder and take more punishment) and he knew some of the "tricks" Bruce would've likely employed since he was his student. But if they were the same size, hands down my money would be on Bruce. And a lot of people have stated the same, admitting that Bruce was pound for pound one of the strongest and most skilled athletes they've come across.

If you really want to know about Bruce, here's some insight into the man, from my own research. Aside from the nunchaku and empty hand stuff that we're all familiar with, he was an avid fencer, knife fighter, enjoyed grappling, and practiced with firearms. These are some things people don't know about him. But you can confirm all of this by a little research and probing, and if you get to talk with his original students it wouldn't hurt either.

As for Norris, in my book he's a fraud. He is a non-contact champion at best. There's a few stories I could tell you about Norris but I'll save that for another post. For now, suffice it to say that Bruce's actual fights were witnessed by many individuals, many of whom are still alive today and were/are well known figures in the martial arts community, Hollywood, or the Hong Kong film industry. None of them have stated that Bruce could not fight or was not a fighter. But I don't know of anyone corroborating Norris' so called street encounters. The only one I've heard about was his so called back alley fight in Korea, when a few students from his Tang Soo Do dojo attacked him as a form of testing. In other words, it wasn't a fight. They weren't trying to really harm him. And given his lack of any meaningful tournament experience, I have no respect for the guy as a martial artist and considering the lies I know he's propagated about Bruce I have no respect for him as a person.

[Jbone1]

Your right Chuck admitted to never getting in any actual combat for real. That back alley thing was real but he said once your a black belt around there everybody looks out for each other. He stated an instant where another black belt got jumped in a tight alley. He got mugged because he new nothing of close quarters combat. But the other black belts found the guys and got revenge.

Anyway, Chuck also stated training with the Gracies and I believe Lidell also. The thing is he became pretty proficient in grappling also so I believe he's well rounded. The thing is Chuck may not be as good as his movies claim but I wouldn't test him.

[Muaythaiboxer]

i really with they had MMA bacj then so we would not have to speculate if bruce could have taken lewis or noris or who ever. in my opinion howard jackson was better than lewis and noris.

[Hansen]

I did hear that Norris was learning BJJ, but did not hear about him ever achieving black belt status. On BJJ.org it lists Norris as a brown belt under one of the Machados. However, I was not aware of Norris training with Lidell. If true, then he has definitely developed as a martial artist since his career first began.

What I find humorous is how Norris attacks Bruce as being a non-fighter, yet Bruce realized the value of grappling and submissions back in the 60s. It took Norris 30 additional years to figure that all out. This fact also gives some insight into who truly had actual combat experience as well as the type of fighting experience each had. A mere tournament fighter or kata man would not see the necessity of ever learning grappling (until he gets his butt kicked) because his so called skills and experience would show it not to be necessary. After all, Norris won all those (meaningless) trophies without ever going to the ground. So who needs ground grappling experience to kick some butt? But a person who's been in real fights and saw how crazy it can get, how violent and intense the experience can be, and witnessed people slip or get tossed to the floor would realize the value of grappling, takedowns, throws, and submissions. And they would take the time to learn it. That's what Bruce did. So this only confirms for me what I've heard from others. Bruce was real, Norris was not. And Lewis I think was mostly talk too, but at least he was a legit full contact fighter for a time. He jumped in the ring to test his skills. I'll give him that. More than I can say for Chuck "Paper Tiger" Norris.