Kyokushin karate bad points. What are they?

[senna_trem]

I was talking to a friend who trains Jeet Kune Do and he was not impressed with how any of the stlyes do kata. He found no use for it in a real fight. He said that only masters of kata would benefit from doing it. He also said that kata was made for people to practice karate (or any other martial arts) individually and that people would benefit more from practicing the same striking and self defense techniques with partners. They would learn quicker and be more powerful because they are not only punching air, they are punching something solid.

[Sauzin]

If trained properly and the way it was designed to be trained Kyokushin is the most complete traditional style of martial arts there is. .

I don't know too much about Kyokushin but I know enough to say that this is not true. One could defiantly argue the semantics of calling Kyokushin "traditional". My personal opinion is that it is not. But as a comparative analysis I would say that very old schools of traditional karate and old Chinese arts spend just as much time on ground work, grappling, and contact. What you don't see quite as much emphasis on in Kyokushin is the finer points of taisabaki, energy work, soft/effortless technique, and some of the little things in kata like why does one hand chamber palm up and the other down before a low x-block or why do you look to the 45 right before a lifting your leg in nihanchi. And without knowing (or even having) all these little things, I would have to wonder how a style would consider itself the most complete traditional style out there.

 

Traditional styles, ones practiced the same way for 2 or 3 hundred years, are as complete as complete gets. A style that has been "created" in the last 100 years might want to wait a century or two before it tries to take the title of most complete. In my opinion it takes at least that long to find out.

 

Kyokushin seems to be a good style though with good emphasis on practicality, conditioning, and focus. But there is nothing new under the sun. Kyokushin practitioners should understand that they are not the first to want the advantage of an inclusive art. Martial artists have been working on that for millenniums.

[Sauzin]

He also said that kata was made for people to practice karate (or any other martial arts) individually and that people would benefit more from practicing the same striking and self defense techniques with partners. They would learn quicker and be more powerful because they are not only punching air, they are punching something solid.

 

I practice kata because kata is like a book written by generations of masters who have devoted their lives to martial arts. Some kata are two man drills. The existence of a partner is not relevant. The way the techniques are performed, the transitions, the timing, the stances, and the pattern are the relevant points. It trains your body to respond and your mind to be quiet. Traditional kata are not made up by one man who thought he knew something. They are a compilation of refinements on techniques, tried and tested by generations. Most (if not all) traditional martial arts understand these values.

[VinnieDaChin]

you know i have to say, that video clip was less than impressive. are you not allowed to punch full force in these contests? are you allowed to kick full force? they never even turned over their hips when they kicked, never adequetly guarded their bodies from body shots (which ought to be easy if your own heads off limits), never even punched with their bodies (you know, pivoting the back foot and using your body and all that). is that really how kyokushkin guys fight?

[Osu No Seichin]

So I am curious. How many Kyokushin tournaments have you refereed, judged or fought in? I would suspect none. So while you are setting up in your nice full Zenkutsu Dachi for your nice hip rotating gyaku tsuki, the kyokushin guy who doesn't kick full force or punch full force or rotates his hip is quietly and very quickly taking your head off and you are lying on the floor unconcious like so many of the people in the video, because you didn't get the time to do this. Beleive me if you don't think those guys are kicking full power or punching full power I suggest that when a Kyokushin Knock down tournament comes to your part of the world you enter and see just how hard and fast they are kicking. And yes we train quite extensively in blocking punches to the body and the head but when you are in a competition and someone is punching as fast and hard as these guys are capable of you are not going to block them all, head punches allowed or not. Funny thing, alot of the top Kyokushin fighters are excellent point fighters, but i have never seen a good point fighter from another stlyle who was any good at Knock Down. Of course I could be wrong but in my experience have seen it yet.

[senna_trem]

Concerning the video, I wonder if most of those clips were taken in the first few seconds of fighting or if it had taken a while to have a KO strike...

 

I did like the video though, it shall be added to my collection. And just so that you know Sauzin, I did not agree with my friend.

[Shorin Ryuu]

If trained properly and the way it was designed to be trained Kyokushin is the most complete traditional style of martial arts there is. .

I don't know too much about Kyokushin but I know enough to say that this is not true. One could defiantly argue the semantics of calling Kyokushin "traditional". My personal opinion is that it is not. But as a comparative analysis I would say that very old schools of traditional karate and old Chinese arts spend just as much time on ground work, grappling, and contact. What you don't see quite as much emphasis on in Kyokushin is the finer points of taisabaki, energy work, soft/effortless technique, and some of the little things in kata like why does one hand chamber palm up and the other down before a low x-block or why do you look to the 45 right before a lifting your leg in nihanchi. And without knowing (or even having) all these little things, I would have to wonder how a style would consider itself the most complete traditional style out there.

 

Traditional styles, ones practiced the same way for 2 or 3 hundred years, are as complete as complete gets. A style that has been "created" in the last 100 years might want to wait a century or two before it tries to take the title of most complete. In my opinion it takes at least that long to find out.

 

Kyokushin seems to be a good style though with good emphasis on practicality, conditioning, and focus. But there is nothing new under the sun. Kyokushin practitioners should understand that they are not the first to want the advantage of an inclusive art. Martial artists have been working on that for millenniums.

 

Sauzin, I couldn't agree with your analysis of it more. I think Mas Oyama was great. I don't think the system of Kyokushin carries the depth of analysis and understanding that he had though. Nothing against it, just what I truly feel.

[pers]

So I am curious. How many Kyokushin tournaments have you refereed, judged or fought in? I would suspect none. So while you are setting up in your nice full Zenkutsu Dachi for your nice hip rotating gyaku tsuki, the kyokushin guy who doesn't kick full force or punch full force or rotates his hip is quietly and very quickly taking your head off and you are lying on the floor unconcious like so many of the people in the video, because you didn't get the time to do this. ]

 

If you think that traditional karateka is a guy in a deep static zenkutsu dachi and go into combat with him you may have a nasty surprise !

 

It is not the style ,it is the instruction and the individual !

[Rank7]

I have heard my jkd instructor say that kyokushin fighters are insane.

 

but i have yet to see any of their katas

[Shorin Ryuu]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Kyokushin is ineffective per se. It's just that you don't get as much bang for your buck. Certainly you get quite a lot of bang out of Kyokushin. However, you have to invest quite a lot more buck to do it, if you get my drift.

 

As usual, this is the whole "tournament environment" versus "street fight" environment debate for me, at least. I certainly don't want to fight a Kyokushin guy in a tournament. If I screw up, I'm sure I'd be seeing stars. However, what Sauzin and I were saying (if I may presume to talk for him), there is less of an emphasis in Kyokushin in general (individual dojo will mitigate this) on the whole range of fighting, which is what we were addressing. We weren't addressing whether or not it would hurt if some Kyokushin guy hit you.