Will you attack first or you wait?

[cross]

Now kata is defensive set of movements ,starts with a block and end with a block/strike

 

Depends how you look at it. Kata is a predetermined set of techniques, they can be attacking and/or defensive depending on the individuals interpretation. So i wouldnt label kata as a set of defensive movements.

 

If kata was mainly defensive your applications would be dependent almost completely on your opponents actions.

so what’s the reason that every body comes in the first thing they say is that if fight is inevitable then they attack first ,

 

I dont go out looking for fights, if someone is really serious about fighting me for whatever reason, im not going to hang around waiting for him to attack so i can execute a perfect technique plucked straight from pinan sandan.

 

Im going to do what i need to do so i can continue on my way without getting injured. If i WAIT for someone to attack me that doesnt add up to effective self defence to me. If a person wants to fight me they are already attacking me in my opinion.

why do you think whoever attacked first has a better chance.

 

Because your taking the initiative away from your attacker, controling the timing of the encounter, putting them on the defensive, making them react to your unpredictable movements..... rather than having them attack first and it being the other way round.

I think if you practice 6 hours a week on a defensive art then you should have more fate on the ideas behind it otherwise it means we didn’t get the art,

 

There is a difference between practicing "art" and actually fighting. Someone who wants to fight you isnt going to care about how much or how little training your had, there only objective will be you hurt you so they can get what they want (satisfaction, revenge, money, belongings etc.) Your objective should be end it as quickly as possible, no matter what it takes. Im sure you dont spend 6 hours a week practising hitting someone with a chair, but if there is a chair there in a self defense situation, im going to use it if i can to help me out.

this means he forgot all his training got nerves and acts on his instinct.

 

This is where muscle memory comes into play, hopefully all your training has made your "instincts" alot better than the average person.

for a good karate ka strong abdomen/forearm/shin is a must.

 

Can you explain why?

[P.A.L]

Depends how you look at it

doesn't matter. the way we do our kata if you are not a karate-ka you won't even see the block since block becomes a strike at the end of it even before the real strike starts in next tempo. but still it has been designed with a defensive strategy behind it.

im not going to hang around waiting for him to attack

having a defensive strategy doesn't mean to hang around, you may think defensively but still attack first to create a better situation for your plans.

i can continue on my way without getting injured

kick/punch kick/punch kick/punch still a $50 million dollars tank is Vulnerable to TOW missile.

making them react to your unpredictable movements

you initiating an attack doesn't mean that you can continue the attack after the first engagement.

Someone who wants to fight you isnt going to care about how much or how little training your had

this doesn't mean that you should get nerves and start throwing punches. it may not be good enough.

 

 

This is where muscle memory comes into play

you practice 6 hours a week , hundreds of times your sempi attacks you and you counter attack him,still you think no matter what whoever attack first should win the fight.

can you explain why?

you are either a off shoot of Naha-te or shuri-te . if you are Naha-te and block soft still times will come that you have to accept a blow for any reason (time/position)during a fight. that's the time you have to rely on your conditioning.

 

if you are a shuri-te not only the first reason but also your blocking should be stronger than your opponent attack. i have received hard blocks on my punches from high level shuri masters ,it has nothing less than a punch. this only possible by conditioning.you don't wanna get hit on your shin for the very first time in a real fight.

 

Most of you heard about the famous fight between choki Mutobo and the professional boxer , all the documents shows that he was the shorter, lighter, older of two, and that he did not win the fight by attacking, he won by a single block/strike in a defensive position. He could jump around do some kick/punch or pre emptive attack but he was just shifting and blocking before his last counter attack (probably a Ippon Ken Zuki)

 

all i am saying is ,if we practice a defensive art like karate why not planning our fights defensively.

[cross]

doesn't matter. the way we do our kata if you are not a karate-ka you won't even see the block since block becomes a strike at the end of it even before the real strike starts in next tempo.

 

I think it does matter, fights are very upredictable, its unlikely that you will be able to pull off one of your "block becomes a strike" moves.

but still it has been designed with a defensive strategy behind it.

 

I disagree, it has been designed with a SELF defence strategy behind it, not a defensive strategy, ask any good fighter and they will tell you that you wont win a fight unless you take the initiative away from your opponent, you cant wait for there movements and try to react, its 2 slow.

having a defensive strategy doesn't mean to hang around, you may think defensively but still attack first to create a better situation for your plans

 

Your still attacking first.

you initiating an attack doesn't mean that you can continue the attack after the first engagement.

 

It gives you a better chance of surviving than waiting for your opponent to hit you.

this doesn't mean that you should get nerves and start throwing punches. it may not be good enough.

 

Thats not what i ment, in a fight you do what you have to so you can survive, your opponent wont give you any more of less respect if you have had previous training.

you practice 6 hours a week , hundreds of times your sempi attacks you and you counter attack him,still you think no matter what whoever attack first should win the fight.

 

Once again, there is a difference between an actual fight and training where the sempai isnt trying to take your head off.

 

Next time your training why dont you do a little test and then come back and tell us all how it went. Get your sempai or one of the better students to put on your boxing gloves(so they dont hurt your face) an do a mock fighting situation. Ask the person to try and hit you in the face as hard and fast as he can when HE is ready without telling you first. Start arguing or whatever not at sparring distance, but right in each others face. When he throws his technique, (im talking about a proper pre-emptive punch here, not a chambered punch that falls short before it hits you.) Try and defend against it and counter attack. I can almost guarentee that you will be eating leather. Seriously do this and tell us how you go. Then you can even switch roles and attack your opponent when your ready.

 

Even if you do it a few times to make sure it wasnt a fluke, you will find that the person attacking will land the punch alot more times than you can defend against it effectively, so you may not win a fight everytime if you attack first but it dramatically increases your chances.

Most of you heard about the famous fight between choki Mutobo and the professional boxer , all the documents shows that he was the shorter, lighter, older of two, and that he did not win the fight by attacking, he won by a single block/strike in a defensive position. He could jump around do some kick/punch or pre emptive attack but he was just shifting and blocking before his last counter attack (probably a Ippon Ken Zuki)

 

Are you choki mutobo? is anyone you know choki mutobo? i dont think so. Just because he could do it in one situation, doesnt mean you can.

all i am saying is ,if we practice a defensive art like karate

 

Once again it depends how you look at it, you may see karate as a defensive art but others do not.

why not planning our fights defensively

 

Probably because firstly you cant "plan" a fight, and secondly there are more effective ways to defend yourself than by being defensive.

[Hengest]

all i am saying is ,if we practice a defensive art like karate why not planning our fights defensively.

 

To me, a pre-emptive strike is a defensive action. Just because my reaction to a confrontation didn't include a block, doesn't mean I wasn't acting defensively, morally or legally.

[AngelaG]

all i am saying is ,if we practice a defensive art like karate why not planning our fights defensively.

 

To me, a pre-emptive strike is a defensive action. Just because my reaction to a confrontation didn't include a block, doesn't mean I wasn't acting defensively, morally or legally.

 

I agree. The only problem is with the legally. If you can prove that they initiated the attack you will have no proble. But how do you even start to prove that? A lot of fights are caused by alcohol causing people to be lairy. All the police will see are another two drunken people having a Saturday night brawl.

 

The best way to try and convince bystanders (and therefore potential witnesses) is by keeping passive body language; also serving as a tool in your fighting armoury as your opponent may underestimate you. The other suggestion is to put up a "fence" and to use verbal commands such as "Calm down I don't want to fight." Unfortunately in the real world his drunken mate has probably sucker punched you in the back of your head by now anyway!

[Hengest]

The only problem is with the legally. If you can prove that they initiated the attack you will have no proble. But how do you even start to prove that? A lot of fights are caused by alcohol causing people to be lairy. All the police will see are another two drunken people having a Saturday night brawl.

 

The best way to try and convince bystanders (and therefore potential witnesses) is by keeping passive body language; also serving as a tool in your fighting armoury as your opponent may underestimate you. The other suggestion is to put up a "fence" and to use verbal commands such as "Calm down I don't want to fight." Unfortunately in the real world his drunken mate has probably sucker punched you in the back of your head by now anyway!

 

Technically, in the UK at least, you're within your legal rights to strike first providing that you were placed in fear of an immediate physical attack and you use reasonable force. However, I do see what you mean in that practically speaking you may have problems convincing the police of your defensive action. It doesn't help that many police officers aren't aware of the actual legal situation. So I would add to the excellent points you made that its a good idea for people to actually learn the legal position (preferably word for word) and, should you be called upon to make a statement to the police, phrase it in those terms.

[AngelaG]

The only problem is with the legally. If you can prove that they initiated the attack you will have no proble. But how do you even start to prove that? A lot of fights are caused by alcohol causing people to be lairy. All the police will see are another two drunken people having a Saturday night brawl.

 

The best way to try and convince bystanders (and therefore potential witnesses) is by keeping passive body language; also serving as a tool in your fighting armoury as your opponent may underestimate you. The other suggestion is to put up a "fence" and to use verbal commands such as "Calm down I don't want to fight." Unfortunately in the real world his drunken mate has probably sucker punched you in the back of your head by now anyway!

 

Technically, in the UK at least, you're within your legal rights to strike first providing that you were placed in fear of an immediate physical attack and you use reasonable force. However, I do see what you mean in that practically speaking you may have problems convincing the police of your defensive action. It doesn't help that many police officers aren't aware of the actual legal situation. So I would add to the excellent points you made that its a good idea for people to actually learn the legal position (preferably word for word) and, should you be called upon to make a statement to the police, phrase it in those terms.

 

I also would suggest not saying anything to the police, especially about being a MAist, until you have spoken to a soliciter!

[Hengest]

I also would suggest not saying anything to the police, especially about being a MAist, until you have spoken to a soliciter!

 

Another good point. Many years ago I was working at a criminal law practice in Essex and I remember seeing one case up before the magistrates' where the victim of an attack took a roasting from the accused's counsel because he was a martial artist. Counsel wanted to argue that he'd provoked the attack in some way by dropping into a stance, or demonstrating a technique or just talking about his MA experience around his attacker! So perhaps it doesn't pay to mention your MA experience at all, whichever side of the fence you're on in a physical confrontation.

[Sauzin]

If I were in a situation where a physical conflict was unavoidable then ideally I would wait for my opponent to commit. This could be as little as a step or a turn, but I would wait for it. It doesn't matter if he intends to push me, grab and throw, or hit me three times. The second he starts to do it is when I will respond. The more commitment the better but I would take whatever he gives me. Even if it was a fake. This does not mean I am letting my opponent control the timing. It's my timing the second I commit and I will change it how I see fit. Plus, until your opponent commits you don't have an accurate target because he can move any direction. Once he commits it's too late. And one thing I've learned is that even with a fist 1 inch from my chest, I have all the time in the world. "Like a calm lake whose waters reflect the moon."

 

On a side note, I have found that many of the strategies and principles applied in Aikido are often used in karate. The training is different but many of the advanced applications are nearly identical.

[senna_trem]

No way am I ever going to attack first. Because I do not want this person slipping out of the grasp of the law because I attacked first and they were just defending themselves. Even if they had provoked with words I'm pretty sure every defense lawyer in the history of mankind will say that I attacked them and so their client is not guilty. Plus I get to react to them and have them come into my space on my terms.