Favorite response to a hook punch...

[Nick_UKWC]

Something we talked about over at MAP a little while ago was the response to a straight, centerline punch. There were quite a few replies and personally it's something I find straight forward to deal with.

 

However I'm not sure about a hook punch (and no, not posting here to fight a battle over there ) As I understand it a real, boxing hook is thrown from head butt range...fighting range for Wing Chun, but I don't know how to deal with it really.

 

I'll be asking Sifu tonight, but I was also wondering what you guys had to say from different styles and perspectives

[delta1]

Good question. I don't remember anyone talking about this hee before now (at least as its' own topic).

 

First, hooks can be thrown as a hook, or as other strikes converted to a hook. Their purpose is mainly to get around your defense. They can be thrown from any striking distance, including right on the end of the punchers nose. In our basics, we practice inverted hooks this way- the punch is palm out and the knuckles just brush the end of your nose.

 

I know WC doesn't like reverse gear, but it is easier to see how to defend this by first backing up. As your opponent throws either a right roundhouse or hooking punch to your head, step back with yur right foot into a fighting stance and execute a left outward block to the punch. Now, if that's all you do, the punch will hook around the block and hit you. Also, the block may not get there in time anyhow. So as you are steping back, your right should come up in a hard outward parry motion to just above the left shoulder. This is a check in case the strike hooks, as you won't see it hook in until it is too late. The check then circles down to guard or check at your mid section, unless it makes contact with the punch, in which case it will momentarily pause.

 

If you want to get in, or stay in really close, simply collapse this structure. The block becomes a strike to his shoulder to unballance him and check his deapth (forward motion) and width (rotational motion). The right hand still checks the hook, but the right elbow is now an upward/inward strike to his jaw. Also, you've moved the target just enough with your foot maneuver or stance change, whichever was required to put you in proper position for the 'defense'. The path of the elbows travel is a clearing check to his left hand, and any time you are in that close your base should be checking his base.

 

Sounds positively 'Wing Chunnie', doesn't it?

[HanSword]

Why not just use a chicken wing elbow block .

 

If your arm is fodled fairly tight and you put it out not too wide - around 50 degrees.

 

the longer hooks will be caught at the puncher's upper arm/fist, the shorter ones closer to his elbow .

 

key is the block must not be too wide o/w the hook can bypass it althogether on the inside and tag you .

 

And you can roll away a little to further reduce the impact.

 

the good thing about elbow blocks is that they hurt the puncher when they block !

 

 

 

Delta1 ,

 

can you elaborate more on throwing hook as hooks ?

 

I always thought hooks should start as straights and tighten to hooks , the ever tightening arc gives it added speed .

[Nick_UKWC]

It sure does, I like it.

 

Assuming he throws a right hook...

 

Checking at the left shoulder with the right hand is really a worst case scenario for us at least but we HAVE trained it already

 

In cases where we do 'block' like this SOP would be to open that into a chop/side punch or sinking fist and then pak to keep hitting or better to try and get outside gate and control him.

 

I agree that a bit of space would be a great idea and although you're right WC doesn't 'like' backing up we do cover it and don't deny there are uses or indeed needs for it. I've read that Ving Tsun rejects this totally and doesn't train it at all. Madness in my eyes.

[Nick_UKWC]

Why not just use a chicken wing elbow block .

 

If your arm is fodled fairly tight and you put it out not too wide - around 50 degrees.

 

A what now! sorry having a little trouble following you!

 

If you mean the WC 'Wing Arm' or Bong Sau there isn't enough room and the structure is all wrong for that type of punch.

 

Otherwise I'm afraid I must ask for clarification! Do you mean elbow raised to about shoulder height and fist back at your shoulder to cover and basically soak it up, like boxing?

[delta1]

Why not just use a chicken wing elbow block .

 

If your arm is fodled fairly tight and you put it out not too wide - around 50 degrees.

 

the longer hooks will be caught at the puncher's upper arm/fist, the shorter ones closer to his elbow .

 

key is the block must not be too wide o/w the hook can bypass it althogether on the inside and tag you .

 

And you can roll away a little to further reduce the impact.

 

the good thing about elbow blocks is that they hurt the puncher when they block !

 

Similar to what we'd call an 'obscure elbow', which is both a strike and a block. You could use this, but hooks can be tricky to see comeing. Also, use it indiscrimently and you leave yourself open to a roundhouse shin kick anywhere on your 'blocking' side.

 

Another reason I prefer the defense I listed to an upward elbow block (though I'm not restricted to it) is that it puts me inside his guard, in control of his space and his weapons, where everything I do is a strike. My strikes just happen to inhibit his strikes.

 

 

can you elaborate more on throwing hook as hooks ?

 

I always thought hooks should start as straights and tighten to hooks , the ever tightening arc gives it added speed .

 

Hold your left hand up in front of your nose, ridge hand (thumb side) touching the nose and palm facing right. Drop your right hand down to any position you want- even hanging by your side. Now, quickly raise your right hand, making a fist, to strike the palm of your hand with the knuckles toward your nose. Elbow comes up high, and this strike makes a really tight arc up into position. You've just thrown an inverted roundhouse or hook.

 

Many systems throw hooks with a lot of body rotation, and they hook from the start. They can go to head or body, or sometimes even to the legs. We do this as we torque into a close kneel or lunge stance.

 

Hooks can start as straight punches, then the elbow arcs up and the strike converts to a hook. Same with a roundhouse. That's one reason we double factor a block to a roundhouse. You can even convert an uppercut to a hook. Just turn on the ball of the punching side foot and bring the elbow up.

 

The arc does give speed, as well as torque, any time you do a hook.

[delta1]

Assuming he throws a right hook...

 

Hooks are hard to see comeing sometimes.Often, they are another strike that missed or was intercepted, then converted to a hook without loss of flow. Checking against them is generally the best defense. A check anticipates a possible action, but doesn't concentrate on that action so as to leave you vulnerable to something else.

Checking at the left shoulder with the right hand is really a worst case scenario for us at least but we HAVE trained it already

 

That's why when you step in instead of out, the check is really just where the hand ends up from your elbow strike. The block was really a strike to his right shoulder, checking his momentum and momentarily upseting his equilibrium. His internal reaction is to move slightly forward to regain ballance. Being a Wing Chunner, I assume you'd react in the same way we do to this- crane and pull with the left, taking advantage of that internal reaction to really mess up his equilibrium and pull him into a strike with the returning motion of your right. I like a whipping backfist.Once again, the path of the right elbow is a clearing check.

 

I really hate WCers who switch to Kenpo. They pick up on these concepts so fast, they are a pain to spar with.

In cases where we do 'block' like this SOP would be to open that into a chop/side punch or sinking fist and then pak to keep hitting or better to try and get outside gate and control him.

 

See what I mean!?

I agree that a bit of space would be a great idea and although you're right WC doesn't 'like' backing up we do cover it and don't deny there are uses or indeed needs for it. I've read that Ving Tsun rejects this totally and doesn't train it at all. Madness in my eyes.

 

Step back and block is mostly yellow belt stuff- begginers level. As you advance, you work techniques that move in and control him. Then the relationships to the first techniques are explored, and you find that it is mostly the same motions with a little sophistication and timeing.

 

I'd agree about the 'madness', but I'll let you guys argue that point. We have enough to argue about amongst ourselves, without getting into WC's internal squabbles as well!

[delta1]

Oh, yeah- that 'chicken wing block he mentioned...

 

Stand in a left foot forward fighting stance (any style). Put your left arm down at your side. Now, as you pivot right on the ball of yur left foot and drop your syance, bring the thumb of your left hand right up along the seam or your trousers until it is up like an elbow strike to a high target. This is a good strike, but can also be used effectively as a block.

 

Problem in this case wouldbe that, since he threw a hook, his momentum is already torqueing to his right, ccw. Since you pivoted your stance for the block, your whole left side and back are exposed- especially your leg and knee! A downward looping roundhouse shin kick, similar to the Muay Thai kicks, could cripple you for life. That's not to mention possibly donating a kidney on the spot, cracked ribs, ...!

 

HandSword, sinceyou kickbox, I'd guess you are familiar with the kick I'm talking about. When you do the chicken wing block, do you move toward the punching arm, or some other maneuver to negate the angle required for his counter/kick? I immagine the block goes a little more back and out than the 'ideal' block I described. I can envision this working with a reversed stance to take out his base- we practice that as a strike. The elbow takes his chin as he drops from your stance spreading his base. But the angles would have to change to do it as a block. How do you guys practice it?

Edited December 14, 2004 by delta1

[Nick_UKWC]

Yikes, than really goes against the grain. Doubt you could see well, your entire flank is exposed, you've broken your own angle on him and your next probable weapon (right arm) is out of the picture.

 

Even is this was only for a split second to get that block up and then pivot back to centre I don't much like the sound of it!

 

Thanks for your excellent posts Delta1 and HanSword, hope we get some more

[delta1]

Nick, I was just editing to ask him some questions. I'm sure I'm missing something here, as I can't see a hard contact ring fighter leaving himself so open. Be interesting to hear how they do this.