jujutsu influence on karate

[SevenStar]

I've heard the story of the physician, but it's not verifiable. there are several stories, and that is one of them. I heard it slightly different though. What I heard was that a chinese physician studied kempo and in his studies and travels came across a chin na specialist. He was shown three locks, which he showed to three japanese men he befriended later, after travelling to japan. Those three men expanded on the locks and created the first three styles of jujutsu.

 

I've had this same conversation three different forums, but nobody has proven a direct link between the two. chinese shuai chiao may have had an influence on sumo - there are similarities there - but the jury is out on jujutsu.

[SevenStar]

chinese culture did indeed have influence on japanese culture - that's no secret. What you are referring to is kanji. The non chinese based characters are katakana.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Well since I train in one of the offshoots of Yoshin ryu and have seen the scrolls, quite a lot can be verified. through historical documents from the 18th century.

 

Tenjin Shinyo-ryu is one of the newer classical jujutsu ryuha, being founded in 1830 and has verifiable links to both Yoshin ryu and it's offshoot, Shin No Shinto-ryu.

 

It is also no secret that a lot of Japanese physicians studied Chinese, Dutch and Portuguese medical practices to further their knowledge, so a physician of the warrior class would not only be looking at medical arts, but also military arts.

 

Then there is also the matter of Chin Gempin (the story of the Chinese tactician who taught three techniques to three warriors) An article about Chin Gempin and his influence on Japanese jujutsu systems with bibliography written by Wayne Muramoto can be read here; http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/Chin.html

[SevenStar]

gempin is the man I was referring to. What do the scrolls say?

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

In one of my previous posts, I mentioned some of the history contained in the scroll. The history of this school is rather common knowledge in classical Japanese martial arts.

[SevenStar]

I've been researching yoshitoki on thenet, and here are some things I've come across:

 

"Hakuda (Baida in China) was introduced to Japan in the early 17th century by a Nagasaki physician name Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki who learned this hard percussive art, and resuscitation techniques while studying medicine in China. Akiyama later changed his philosophy to an art of pliancy, thus today he is considered one of the inspirations for Yoshin-ryu Ju-jitsu. Akiyama was possibly the first person to introduce a pure striking art to mainland Japan."

 

In the next excerpt, notice that is says he knew three jujutsu techniques, not chin na techniques:

 

"Yoshin Ryu Jujitsu, the "School of the Willow Heart" or "School of the Willow Spirit," presumably founded by Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki, a physician from Nagasaki, is one of the Edo-period jujitsu schools that is best known here in the West. This style or ryu dates back to sometime before 1671. Yoshitoki felt that the jujitsu techniques he had learned were not sufficient in number, so he retreated to Tenmangu Shrine, where he devoted himself to meditation for one hundred days, during which time he developed 303 techniques of his own. One snowy day when Akiyama Yoshitoki was still on retreat in Tenmangu Shrine, he happened to notice a willow tree on the shrine grounds. Despite the recent heavy snows, this willow, unlike some of the other trees on the grounds, did not have even a single branch broken. The Willow branches simply yielded and allowed the snow to fall off; then the branches sprung back with great force, thereby saving the tree. This yielding principle was not only understood to be an essential element of the warrior arts of ancient Japan, but have been perfected through there test of time to the present."

 

The question is where these people got their story from. Regardless, it lends a hand in saying that nobody really knows.

[SevenStar]

looking at those excerpts, he went to china to become a bone doctor. he already knew three jujutsu techniques. after meditating, he used his knowledge of anatomy to expand on his three techniques. That does not imply that CMA had an influence on jujutsu.

 

Here is something I just found about jujutsu history and gempin:

 

"Although the origin of Jujutsu is not clear, and no fixed date of its first appearance can be ascertained, there is no doubt that it is a purely Japanese art. Further, it has not been derived from ancient Chinese Martial Arts as some scholars of the martial arts have proposed. It has been a common belief of various researchers that a Chinese priest named Chin Genpin brought the art of Kempo, "kicking and striking", to Japan around 1659. In 1659, Chin Genpin became a naturalized Japanese subject and died in 1671. "

[kzshin]

I don't think Jujitsu has any influence on Karate. even there is, probably very very minor. Bushido and kendo does have alot of influence on Japanese karate (not pure Okinawan karate) regarding the mentaility, and mind.

[JAMJTX]

The Shindo Jinen Ryu Founder, Konishi Yasuhiro, also studied Jujutsu and even learned Daito Ryu from Ueshiba (Aikido Founder) before taking up Karate training. The Daito Ryu and Takeouchi Ryu Jututsu have very strong influences on the Shindo Jinen Ryu.

I am also conducting reserach into Mabuni Kenwa, Shito Ryu Founder, and his Jujutsu training.

The Jujutsu that Shogo Kuniba is said to have learned from Mabuni had a strong influence on Motobuha Shito Ryu Karatedo.

Jim Mc Coy

[ps1]

I would also find it hard to believe that the warrior class of ancient Japan would share techniques with the pesants. I can't offer any true evidence, since most of the techniques within that time period were taught within families and not written. The organization of the arts and writing them didn't really begin until the Meiji restoration.

That being said, there are still several techniques within Karate that are very similar to or the same as the techniques of Jujitsu. This is true because there are only so many ways to break a bone or injure an organ with maximum efficency. The various Kata demonstrate many, many grappling techniques, which can be used both while standing and on the ground.