jujutsu influence on karate

[Dark Shogun]

I found a group that seem to practice Jigen Ryu jujutsu and iaijutsu. I think the site is in German so cannot tell if it is Jigen Ryu jujutsu or some other jujutsu.

 

Any pop, if this is Jigen Ryu jujutsu and it is practiced along side a Jigen Ryu sword art, then it is possible that Matsumura learned it. I do not know if he would have had menkyo in jujutsu.

 

I read also that the Satsuma instructed their pesants in the use of bo, jo and eiku. These are all 'Okinawan' type weapons.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Dark Shogun, that Jigen ryu is not from the Satsuma Han. It's a Gendai budo, not a koryu. Have a look at the iaijutsu that is taught in their syllabus! Its the same Shoden syllabus as in your school!

 

1. MAE

 

2. MIGI

 

3. HIDARI

 

4. USHIRO

 

5. YAE GAKI

 

6. UKE NAGASHI

 

7. KAISHAKU

 

8. TSUKE KOMI

 

9. TSUKI KAGE

 

10. OI KAZE

 

11. NUKI UCHI

 

Sound familiar? It's either Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu or Muso Shinden ryu that is being taught. It's not real Jigen ryu.

 

There is another Jigen ryu that is a koryu, Tenshin Sho Jigen ryu. But they have always been situated in Saitama Prefecture, so it wasn't them either.

[Dark Shogun]

So did the Jigen Ryu kenjutsu that Matsumura studeid have any jujutsu or other arts attached to it?

[MenteReligieuse]

Maybe this has said before, but here is my 2 cents.

 

Karate originated in Okinawa. Jujutsu was the unarmed ryu of the japanese warriors (which of course favored throws over punches because ppl used armour back then).

 

Japan conquered Okinawa. So the two styles HAS to have influenced each other to some extent.

 

Now you owe me 2 cents!

[SevenStar]

No they don't. the japanese were very conscious of who they taught. Also, karate was a peasant art. japanese nobles train jujutsu. Okinawan and japanese peasants learned karate. Matter of factly, funakoshi thought that integrating jujutsu with the okinawan arts was wrong - and that was as recently as the early 1900s...

 

That said, it's not impossible that there was some cross over, but it would've been minimal.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Japanese peasants learning Karate? Karate wasn't introduced to mainland Japan until the early 1920's by Funakoshi Gichin and by all Okinawan historical accounts, the Karate that Funakoshi taught in Tokyo was a watered down version of Shuri te.

 

True okinawn karate already had grappling methods such as projections, vital point strikes, strangularions and joint locking techniques in it's teachings which stem not only from Chinese systems, but also from indiginous Ryukuan grappling systems. Belivieve it or not, Ryukuans had their own wrestling systems way before the Japanese occupation and the introduction of Sumo.

 

Naha te and Shuri te in their pure forms already had techniques in their respective syllabi that were very much akin to the techniques found in jujutsu. If there is a connection to the grappling techniques found in karate and jujutsu, it is from China since some (not all) forms of jujutsu (like Yoshin ryu) have their basis in Chinese techniques and the same goes for the techniques found in Okinawa te (karate).

 

During the occupation of Okinawa by the Satsuma han, the teaching methods of Jigen ryu and the systemization were borrowed by some systems of Okinawa te.

[Dark Shogun]

What does everyone think of this? https://www.kempo.4mg.com/articles/okinawan.htm

[Dark Shogun]

I've had a read through some other parts of the site. The author seems to have a lot of sokes and shihans.

 

That aside, what about the article?

[SevenStar]

Naha te and Shuri te in their pure forms already had techniques in their respective syllabi that were very much akin to the techniques found in jujutsu. If there is a connection to the grappling techniques found in karate and jujutsu, it is from China since some (not all) forms of jujutsu (like Yoshin ryu) have their basis in Chinese techniques and the same goes for the techniques found in Okinawa te (karate).

 

afaik, it's not verifiable that ANY jujutsu came had chinese influence. people say it did, but I don't think there's solid proof.

[Gunyo Kogusoku]

Yoshin ryu jujutsu (now extinct) founder, Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki was recorded as going to China to learn to be a physician and bone doctor. In his travels, he learned three combat techniques as well as hundreds of remedies and cures for broken bones, dislocations and muscular damage.

 

When he returned to Japan, he could attract no students for martial arts since he only had three techniques to teach. He meditated at Tenmangu jinja (A shrine which still exists in Kyoto) and stayed there for 100 days.

 

After his meditations, he applied his knowledge of anatomy, osteopathy and musculature with the three techniques that he learned in China to formulate three hundred techniques.

 

Yoshin ryu jujutsu is no longer extant, but many offshoots remain. Yoshin ryu naginatajutsu, Totsuka Ha Yoshin ryu, Rokugo ryu, Shin No Shindo ryu, Yoshin Koryu, Shinto Yoshin ryu and Tenjin Shinyo ryu are all offshoots of Akiyama's original school.

 

The scrolls of Yoshin ryu are still extant as well as the oral traditions.

 

More proof of Chinese influence on Japanese culture is the fact that the Japanese language is based on Chinese characters. There is also historical proof that there were Chinese delegates living in Japan as early as the 15th century.