~A little confused about TKD and TSD history~

[Keumgang]

I'm a little confused about the history of Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do. I have a book on Taekwondo and it gives a brief history about how the art started around 2000 years ago. It also refers to when Korea was in its "three kingdoms" period at around the 35 BC - 935 AD. It talks about how Baekche and Korguryo made a pact with Tang China and crushed Silla, uniting the country as a whole.

 

Now I just read some Tang Soo Do history and it is almost identical to the history in my Tae Kwon Do book! Could my Tae Kwon Do book history really be referring to Tang Soo Do history?

 

If I remember correctly, my grandmaster said that Tae Kwon Do is fairly new and used to be called Tae Kyon (SIK). Going back 2000 years ago, was Tae Kyon and Tang Soo Do the same martial art?

[tufrthanu]

All those histories are *...Taekwondo started in 1955 as an offshoot of shotokan karate...and tang soo do started a little bit earlier.

[TSDforChrist]

Well, obviously, he's not a beleiver. "Tang Soo Do" and "Tae Kwon Do" are composite arts. They both incorporate Tae Kyon which was a traditional Korean martial art. It died at one point, and the Taekkyon practiced now is really just a guess. They also incorporated Soo Bahk (at least TSD did, im sketchy about that), another traditional Korean art. These arts did originate in China. They both have elements of the Hwa Rang stylings. There is a large Japanese influence, because Korea WAS occupied by Japan. For example, in TSD, the Pyeong'An hyung are the Pinan Kata of okinawan martial arts. These forms are found in many martial arts. There's really not much truth to the idea that the Korean people had no martial arts knowledge whatsoever until they took from the Japanese during the occupation, and while influence is prevalent, that's because they are composite arts. Despite the similarity, they are NOT an offshoot of Shotokan, because Shotokan as taught by Funakoshi was VERY different that Shotokan now - it had no similarity to either Korean art while he was alive, and guess what? He was still alive. Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do have very similar histories because they nearly became the same art. You know how you have different TKD kwons? Such as Chung Do Kwan, etc.? TSD was almost the Moo Duk Kwan. Now, there is a TKD Moo Duk (sp on the TKD one?) Kwan, beause when Hwang Kee (TSD founder) decided he wanted to keep TSD separate from the other Korean martial arts that were merging, some of his students split and stayed TKD. This could have easily happened to any of the other TKD kwons, something I don't think TSD practitioners pay enough attention to. We're really not all that different, from our origins. Now, some people will argue the veracity of my statement, for various reasons. One of these, as well, is reactionary to the fact that some Koreans claim that all non-Chinese martial arts came from them (truthfully, its possible...but not likely. Its a story about a Korean martial arts master who traveled to some islands, taught the inhabitants,etc... if you connect those islands with Okinawa, where does THAT leave you?)Honestly, no one position is provable or factually more sound than the other. It ends up a question of what YOU want to beleive. If it seems to you more logical that your art is simply Koreans stealing, that its a permutation of something else, and that there is no early Korean Martial art influence, then fine, believe that. I will continue to believe otherwise, however. I nencourage you to do more research into the topic before deciding, however.

[tufrthanu]

Well I've seen videos of Tae Kyon and I can honestly say TKD and TSD do NOT have tae kyon in them...and anyone that thinks so really needs to research it. As to the similarity between TKD, TSD and Shotokan...all you have to do is look at the training of the kwan founders...almost all of them had shotokan training...whereas NONE of them has verifiable proof of training in any native Korean empty hand art.

[TSDforChrist]

Current Tae Kyon is NOT the traditional art - the original art did die out, unfortunately. Hwang Kee, TSD founder, to my knowledge did NOT have shotokan training. He did train in China, and did incorporate kata from a book by Funakoshi, but had also learned Tae Kyon by observing an instructor from a distance who had refused him (because he was too young).

[rmclain]

After the liberation of Korea from the Japanese occupation Koreans were allowed to publicly practice martial arts. Except for some Kendo and Judo instruction they mostly practiced the martial arts studied abroad and brought to Korea: karate or chuan-fa. These first schools called their art either "Tang Soo Do," "Kong Soo Do," or "Subak Do." It was just a way for them to give their training a name.

 

After the Korean War, the country was rebuilding and wanted to make a unique martial arts identity.

 

There were suggestions to unify the kwans and make 1 martial arts program and use a new name, such as "taekwondo" or "Taesoo Do," etc.

 

What is left now is the results of merging the original kwans and giving a new name. People associate "Tang Soo Do" with "Moo Duk Kwon" because Hwang Kee resisted the assimilation and went his own way. But, originally most schools called their art "Tang Soo Do" in the 1940's and 50's.

 

R. McLain

[TSDforChrist]

I'm not saying it is not a composite art, but I do disagree with it being an offshoot of Shotokan, a Korean version of an art, or mostly based on a single other art. The core of these arts is a composite of traditional Korean arts.

[tommarker]

Instead of starting a "tang soo do is korean shotokan" thread every 2 weeks, maybe we could make one of the previous ones a sticky post? :)

[TSDforChrist]

I wouldn't object as long as it was unbiased...........

[Trappersan]

The reason that the books say the same thing is that they have basicly have the same origen. Both TKD and TSD are composit styles. Both are new Martial arts, they did not begine 2000 years ago. they both have roots going back 2000 years ago. the Grand Master nerver recieved his dan from anybody but learned mostly by watching at the start while in China. you will get diffrent answers form diffrent people about Tae kyon. some say it was a martial art. Some say that it was a street game that people bet on that only allowed feet. You will have to come up with your own conclusion on this. Korean history is not clear do to the Japanese occupation. they burned and destoried everything trying to do away with the korean heratage. so most of what you have read now was derived from word of mouth or pieced to gether form hear and there. If you want to know the true about the history of tsd try and get ahold of the Grandmasters Autobyogriphy. e-mail Moo Duk Kwan for it. this book was in limited print. there was a lot of confusion about the Grandmasters beginings and the Moo Duk Kwan. Good Luck with the reasurch. -Trapper-