Joint Locks

[Gumbi]

Joint locks are great....I personally love 'em.....I use them very frequently when having to escort an unruly patron from the bars I work in......BUT.....and this is a big but......as said before.....joint locks are usually very difficult to apply during a grappling/wrestling around situation, unless the person is stunned first.....and then they must be applied quickly......when someone is grabbing you, all their efforts are going into the strength in their hands, and wrists.......it really is very difficult to apply the wrist locks without loosening the person up first.....I favor the quick shot to the solar plexus, but any strike that stuns the person for just a moment can cause them to loosen their grip.....but even then.....you gotta move quickly.....

 

I disagree - joint locks are a learned skill, much like anything else. I could say that hitting a 75mph fastball is extremely difficult to do- whereas an actual baseball player would find it rather easy to do. I would even go as far to say that applying them when in a grappling situation is very easy, because its a natrual instinct for someone to grab your head which, in inferior positions, is giving a clear opening for some type of joint lock.

 

If you're talking about joint locks on the feet, well, I wouldnt say you have to stun them at all (I've yet to throw a single punch at my bar) but I would agree that applying submission holds on the feet is much more difficult than on the ground (since you can effectively use your weight to pin them and isolate the given limb).

 

 

Would it be fair to say that joint locks are fine as a pain compliance technique, but in a knock down, drag them out brawl they are of limited use?

 

What do you think the percentage is, that an ARM lock will end a REAL fight

 

Pain compliance is fine when using small joint manipulation, and when your opponent isnt fueled by adrenaline. Fact is, even when someone is drunk, when applying a joint lock to a large joint (such as elbow, shoulder, or knee) thats a serious injury that goes beyond adrenaline. Even should your opponent continue to fight, hes at such a disadvantage now (since joint locks break the very structure your body relies on to move) that he will be considerably less dangerous than he was prior.

 

I have had buddies who have been involved with guys on PCP- they just dont care what breaks on them, but chokes will work just as well, regardless of how high they are.

we realized that this guy was just not gonna stop, and decided that the best thing to do was handcuff him.....having control of his legs, I flipped him onto his chest, and they both grabbed his arms and chicken winged his arms behind his back so we could cuff him......in doing so, we heard his shoulder pop, and his thumb as well......it was loud, and unmistakable......still, he continued to go crazy......I put him into a leg lock, and began twisting his ankle till it locked.....still, he kept fighting, and I just kept tightening the lock until finally, his ankle just snapped

 

Im curious- why wouldnt you have just applied a choke and then put handcuffs on him? I dont know the extent to which the guy was fighting back at you, but I know I'd be looking at a lawsuit if I did that to a guy in my bar.

[STR33T GUY]

I was thinking about my own use of finger and thumb locks.

 

The only times that I’ve used them in sparring, was to cause my opponent to release his grip. We had a gentlemen’s agreement to release the thumb or finger lock as soon as the grip that it was intended to break had been released.

 

I have never used a finger/thumb lock in a street fight. I believe that finger/thumb locks would be useful for breaking grips but beyond that there’re probably not that useful in a street fight.

 

Just my two cents worth.

[STR33T GUY]

Re; MJ’s bar/street fight

 

Gumbi’s choke idea sounds like a good idea, but sometimes in the chaos of a fight good ideas can’t be made to work.

 

One time I had this guy mounted and he was reaching out with his arms in defense. Now all you grapplers will know that this guy was just begging me to arm-bar him. But he was laying head first in a corner so I had no room to arm-bar him. I wouldn’t have been able to key-lock him either if the opportunity arose because the walls were just to close. So I used my left arm to measure the distance and began dropping bombs with my right, this ended the fight quickly.

[Master Jules]

We were a little leary about applying a choke hold to the guy, for the simple reason that he was trying to bite anyone that came near his head.....I dont know how you feel about it, but I dont want to get bitten....its not the pain that would concern me, but the risk of some serious type of bacterial infection....the mouth is a lot dirtier than most people realize.

[Gumbi]

Str33t Guy:

 

"Gumbi’s choke idea sounds like a good idea, but sometimes in the chaos of a fight good ideas can’t be made to work."

 

Its a technique that can be used in just about any given situation. I've yet to encounter someone untrained that I couldnt choke from just about every position (most people dont even know how to defend their necks, or that they should do it)

 

Master Jules:

 

"We were a little leary about applying a choke hold to the guy, for the simple reason that he was trying to bite anyone that came near his head.....I dont know how you feel about it, but I dont want to get bitten....its not the pain that would concern me, but the risk of some serious type of bacterial infection....the mouth is a lot dirtier than most people realize."

 

Agreed- getting bitten is obviously no fun at all, but theres no way someone can bite you when being choked- if they can, then you're not choking them as it would be far too loose.

[STR33T GUY]

I've yet to encounter someone untrained that I couldnt choke from just about every position

 

Are you talking about street fights that you have had yourself, or are you talking about rolling in the dojo?

 

 

getting bitten is obviously no fun at all, but theres no way someone can bite you when being choked- if they can, then you're not choking them as it would be far too loose.

 

What about getting bit before your able to get the choke on, while your still struggling to get your arm in position?

 

We are talking about an actual fight here not a theoretical scenario. From MJ’s description, it sounds like someone would have to move out of your way to make room for you to apply the choke. The simplest solution would be to hit him hard in the head knocking him out cold, but if that means accidentally elbowing one of your guys in the face as you cock you arm, then striking doesn’t really work that well either.

 

Since MJ was the only one that was there he could shed more light on this (lessons learned maybe?).

 

A pet peeve of mine is when someone describes a real fight that they were in and someone who wasn’t there says, “I’d do it like this instead”. I’m sure that they would do it different, just nothing like they think they would.

[Gumbi]

 

Are you talking about street fights that you have had yourself, or are you talking about rolling in the dojo?

 

Both

 

 

 

What about getting bit before your able to get the choke on, while your still struggling to get your arm in position?

 

Thats very possible- there are numerous things that can happen, but I've yet to have one of those happen to me (and I've dealt with a few "biters" here and there)

 

From MJ’s description, it sounds like someone would have to move out of your way to make room for you to apply the choke. The simplest solution would be to hit him hard in the head knocking him out cold, but if that means accidentally elbowing one of your guys in the face as you * you arm, then striking doesn’t really work that well either.

 

Very well could be- whenever I've had people "help" me take guys out, they usually get in the way. As far as knocking him out- by this point its very plausible, since the guy is trying to bite people.

 

A pet peeve of mine is when someone describes a real fight that they were in and someone who wasn’t there says, “I’d do it like this instead”. I’m sure that they would do it different, just nothing like they think they would.

 

A pet peeve of mine is when someone tries to sound like they're a pro, and then asks * questions like "which is t3h b3st throw for OMG t3h Str33t?"

 

Fights dont always turn out the way you expect them to, but I've managed to throw a choke on EVERYONE I've ever had to escort out of the bar and/or fight. Besides, this wasnt a 1 on 1 fight (im sure he wasnt worried about getting beat up) and the question was which was what other efficient means he could end it with.

 

You have NO idea the experience I have training or the experience I have fighting, so think twice before you decide to criticize someone.

[STR33T GUY]

Fights dont always turn out the way you expect them to, but I've managed to throw a choke on EVERYONE I've ever had to escort out of the bar and/or fight.

 

First off, I’m not saying that you’re lying, ok! I just think that your experience is very unusual.

 

How about telling us about a real knock-down drag them out fight of yours and how you used a choke in it? Having never used a submission in a street fight, I’d be very interested to read about your experiences.

[Gumbi]

First off, I’m not saying that you’re lying, ok! I just think that your experience is very unusual.

 

How about telling us about a real knock-down drag them out fight of yours and how you used a choke in it? Having never used a submission in a street fight, I’d be very interested to read about your experiences.

 

Simple three man scenario, 2 large guys (one average size) trying to start trouble who, we decide, need to leave. About 3 of us I believe grip them up (a regular body lock does well for the moment with the guy I have) but there isnt a great struggle at first. Once in the elevator, the roided up guy I have a hold of starts flipping out claiming his sister was in the elevator, and he didnt want her to get hurt. As I try to talk him down, he goes into a roid rage and decides hes going to crush everyone in the elevator. When he puts his hands on my chest, a simple arm drag gets me to his back where I apply a RNC and try to talk him down again- when he doesnt listen, I choke him unconcious. His friend obviously didnt appreciate that, so he decides to take a swing at me. A bodylock does fine for him, and I walk him out the door (once we get to the main floor) and his other friend is carried out. No ones hurt and the guys are out of the bar, where they can act as tough as they want.

 

Its all a matter of what you train in and how often you do it. I most likely train more grappling/submission than an average guy, so finding ways to choke people out and point joint locks on them isnt difficult. On the other hand, I havent knocked someone out with a punch, but for an experienced striker, this is obviously another day at work.

[STR33T GUY]

I have a few questions for you Gumbi, if you don’t mind?

 

What version of the RNC did you use?

 

What type of grip did you use for the body lock?

 

Is the arm drag a favorite of yours for taking the back, or was it a case of what was available?

 

Is there anything that you would do differently if you had the chance?