Joint Locks

[Kaminari]

I use joint locks all the time when grappling, but rarely when standing up. They can be used as good counters, though. Someone throws a strike and you dodge, use the strike against them. As one of my instructors likes to say, "If someone feeds you their hand, eat it."

[Hudson]

What are some styles that practice joint locks as a good part of curriculum?

 

I know of Hapkido and some styles of Kung Fu, but what else out there?

[Master Jules]

Joint locks are great....I personally love 'em.....I use them very frequently when having to escort an unruly patron from the bars I work in......BUT.....and this is a big but......as said before.....joint locks are usually very difficult to apply during a grappling/wrestling around situation, unless the person is stunned first.....and then they must be applied quickly......when someone is grabbing you, all their efforts are going into the strength in their hands, and wrists.......it really is very difficult to apply the wrist locks without loosening the person up first.....I favor the quick shot to the solar plexus, but any strike that stuns the person for just a moment can cause them to loosen their grip.....but even then.....you gotta move quickly.....

 

Aside from Jujitsu's obvious locking applications Hudson, traditonal Goju Ryu has tons of locks and throws which come from the Shaolin Chin Na aspects of the art.

[Flying Tiger]

yeah, my ju-jitsu focused almost solely on standing and ground locks. The only time I got a chance to test their effectiveness was when I was theoretically sparring (I say theoretically because he had something against me and it started to get unfriendly) an aquaintance. I kept trying to apply the joint-locks I had learned in Ju-jitsu, but I couldn't really get a hold of him, and when I did, he just muscled out. So, I have to agree with Master Jules and just about everyone else here, stun them first, or wok on some serious hand strength.

[STR33T GUY]

I’ve never used a joint lock in a street fight, only in sparring. Here’s my two cents worth.

Since I count joint locks in with my grappling techniques, that answers the question about group confrontations. we all can imagine how well a single person trying to grapple a group of people would go over.

 

I agree.

standing locks - I don't prefer them especially not to be used by themselves. As sasori-te said, they should be stunned first.

 

I agree.

theyre a lot harder to do standing up in real life than many would have you believe.

 

I agree.

 

I have tapped people out with locks on the ground during sparring, but who is going to tap out on the street? I don’t know how a dislocation will affect someone pumped up on adrenaline, fighting their hardest. Has anyone dislocated a joint on the street?

[Master Jules]

Working as a bouncer, Ive had numerable street experiences....in regards to the last post.....yes, I have, but much worse, and it was one of the most memorable and unbelievable thing Ive ever seen.

 

Heres the scenario....

 

The adjoining bar was tossing a guy out....he wasnt a big guy by any means....5'7" ish......maybe 170 lbs....He was being pinned down on the concrete by the two door guys....one was an older guy, about late 40's....6'2", probably 280 lbs....strong guy for an older guy.....the other doorman was 6'1", 305 lbs....he is currently a world champion, super heavyweight arm wrestler....his strength is just unreal.......the two of these guys were struggling to hold this little guy down, and he was fighting like a maniac....even though he was pinned on his back...he wouldnt quit....he even kept trying to BITE these guys.....I ran over from doing the door at the adjoining bar next door, and grabbed his legs, which were still kicking and flailing away like crazy.....we realized that this guy was just not gonna stop, and decided that the best thing to do was handcuff him.....having control of his legs, I flipped him onto his chest, and they both grabbed his arms and chicken winged his arms behind his back so we could cuff him......in doing so, we heard his shoulder pop, and his thumb as well......it was loud, and unmistakable......still, he continued to go crazy......I put him into a leg lock, and began twisting his ankle till it locked.....still, he kept fighting, and I just kept tightening the lock until finally, his ankle just snapped.....he screamed very breifly......his foot turned 180 degrees in the wrong direction, and his ankle joint felt like the consistency of gravel....kinda weird feeling actually......the cops handed us a pair of cuffs, cause they just couldnt get close enough to the guy without one of us letting go, and that wouldnt have been a good idea....he was still going crazy.....when the cops stood him up to lead him away to the patrol car, the most amazing thing was that he actually WALKED on his dangling foot.....he had a thumb and a shoulder dislocated, and a completely snapped ankle, and he actually just WALKED to the cop car......he was out of his mind, ranting and raving like a lunatic, which led us to believe that he was probably on PCP, or something else like it.....Ive heard the stories of guys smashing their fists by punching through windshields and stuff like that, but this was the first time Ive ever seen anything like this......I think its pretty safe to say though, that a sober person is gonna be slowed down significantly by a dislocation of a major joint, or a break......but.....ya never know.....

[STR33T GUY]

Master Jules that is amazing! It hurts just reading that.

 

Would it be fair to say that joint locks are fine as a pain compliance technique, but in a knock down, drag them out brawl they are of limited use?

 

What do you think the percentage is, that an ARM lock will end a REAL fight

[Master Jules]

Hey Str33t Guy..........yeah.....sick story huh ?......I swear....I think back on it and even though I was right there in the middle of it, I still just dont believe it !.....

 

Good question about "pain compliance".....the thing is.....ya just cant make a blanket statement about whether or not pain compliance techniques are or arent effective on the street or anywhere else, because the answer depends on the pain threshold of each individual.....some folks have no tolerance for pain at all, and you can walk them all over the place with any kind of locking technique......but likewise, there are some folks who can stand up to all kinds of pain.....so it really depends on two things....the first of course, is who is applying the lock ?....are they proficient at what they are doing ?.....IE...dont expect a "color belt" to be able to work any kind of technique on the street with pinpoint accuracy.....especially if they havent used some kind of "loosening" technique first, like a shot to the solar plexus or something like that.....and the second thing is again....how much pain can the recipient tolerate ?.........Ive used arm bars millions of times, cause you always get the bigger guys who go to grab you.....sometimes Ill give a quick fingertip strike to the solar plexus to kinda buckle them a bit, and then take em down......sometimes ya just gotta move really fast and just take em down hard......either way though.......those two factors are really important.....can you apply a lock proficiently ? , and how much pain can the recipient tolerate.....thats what it all comes down to.

[STR33T GUY]

Thanks for the reply Master Jules.

 

It seems to me that looking for a joint lock in a street fight is a bad idea. But if the guy just gives you his arm, then you could dislocate it and if that didn’t work you would have to then strike him into unconsciousness.

 

Or to put it another way, focus on grounding and pounding and take the arm if it is offered to you but be prepared to return to the pounding.

[Master Jules]

I just kinda try to take whats offered and exploit it any way I can.....whether its grappling or stand up punch and kick....just gotta make the best outta whatever they give you