kenpo vs. boxing

[wingedsoldier]

i already know there's a thread for karate vs. boxing, but i wanna know how a boxer would fair against a black belt in the ed parker system. one of the first things we learned in kenpo was boxing. we had the same punches and hand positions but different stances. kenpo itself has wide arsenal and many options for defending and attacking, and both combat systems are equally intense(i'm referring to the intensity of the art itself, not that of the individual fighter).

[delta1]

All else being equal, I'd say the Kenpo practitioner has the advantage. And the two styles do mix well in some respects. The best at this I've seen is the BKF. If you ever get a chance to work with them, don't pass it up!

 

Remember that the boxers stances, tactics,and footwork are designed for a sport that has rules to restrict target areas and techniques, and they depend a lot on wearing heavy padded gloves. This can all work against the boxer. But, notice I said "all else being equal." I'd never disrespect or underestimate a boxer.

[VinnieDaChin]

mainly because of the way boxers train defensively compared to kempo guys id give it to them. those inside outside up down whatever blocks just dont work, but the way a boxer covers or absorbs or slips and all that, and how they train to do that, i think would always give it to the boxer.

[delta1]

If all you do is stand there and block, yes. But no seriouse style really does that, and especially not Kenpo. Blocks primarily establish some kind of control over your opponent. They may also double as a strike. Many times, they don't even catch his strike on the way in, but on the way out.

 

As for the boxers cover being better, without gloves, it doesn't even protect his face better. It certainly doesn't protect his lower body better. And hisfootwork is good, but very limmited.

 

The boxers main advantages are that the few things they do, they do really well (with some problems in their punching). They are usually extremely well conditioned, and they train a lot with intent and hard contact. But a similarly well trained Kenpoist has trained a much bigger arsenal, has a system designed to use and protect the whole body, and is much more maneuverable.

 

I gotta disagree totally with you here. You seem to be speaking from a complete lack of understanding of both systems.

[Red J]

If all you do is stand there and block, yes. But no seriouse style really does that, and especially not Kenpo. Blocks primarily establish some kind of control over your opponent. They may also double as a strike. Many times, they don't even catch his strike on the way in, but on the way out.

 

I agree with this. Throw in a couple of well placed kicks, low of course, to the shins, knees, thigh, hip or groin area and you will help open him up.

[VinnieDaChin]

no, while yes i do speak with a limited understanding of kempo, i do boxing quite a bit- and the covering i was talking about wasnt with the huge gloves on. you see it in cage fights and other mma fights all the time, when a guy gets in trouble he covers up with his forarms, which is primarily what a boxer blocks with, right? thats how ive been doing it. but between that and the slips and foor movements boxers do, thats what i meant by their defensive skills. kempo guys fighting a boxer, my money says theyd quickly revert from whatever stance they use (at least all the ones ive seen used) and "put their dukes up" so to not get knocked out.

[delta1]

Vinnie, if you box, then you know more about it than me- I'll have to give you that. And yes, covering with the forearms works- we do that too. But you have to understand its limmitations when fighting without gloves. They can be grabed or craned and moved out of the way just as a strike lands. Also, this is one good example of an application for a block. An inward block to a covering forearm can cut, or clear enough that the upper case of that block is a hammerfist strike. Maybe not as much force as an unobstructed strike, but enough to keep you unballanced and on the defensive, and to set up another strike.

 

I've said elsewhere that I do not give boxing short shrift. A good boxer can pick you apart like almost no one else. If you can do it, I'd say boxing is a good secondary art to improve whatever style you like. But outside the ring, it has some seriouse limmitations. My opinion- your mileage may varry.

[VinnieDaChin]

well to be fair, i dont train for the ring so much as the cage- not that i cage fight, but thats more like the street, which is my biggest concern. i actually train with some muay thai guys, which i consider to be almost exactly like boxing when only dealing with the hands.

 

actually- let me ask you something about kenpo since you do it.. when youre in your stance and when blocking punches, just how far do your hands come away from your face? and when you block a punch, how exactly do you do it- deflect to the side, absorb, etc?

[Red J]

When blocking you don't use those big windmill looking training blocks like you see in beginner lines. You block so you won't get hit. The more advanced the student the more subtle the block so that you almost look like you are just avoiding the strike. You can deflect, absorb, slip, or even use your block as a strike to open your opponent up. Oh, and even better, the "don't be where the punch is" which is not a block but rather a combination of deft footwork and body control.

[delta1]

When blocking you don't use those big windmill looking training blocks like you see in beginner lines. You block so you won't get hit. The more advanced the student the more subtle the block so that you almost look like you are just avoiding the strike. You can deflect, absorb, slip, or even use your block as a strike to open your opponent up. Oh, and even better, the "don't be where the punch is" which is not a block but rather a combination of deft footwork and body control.

 

Excellant answer, which bears repeating...

When blocking you don't use those big windmill looking training blocks like you see in beginner lines. You block so you won't get hit. The more advanced the student the more subtle the block so that you almost look like you are just avoiding the strike. You can deflect, absorb, slip, or even use your block as a strike to open your opponent up. Oh, and even better, the "don't be where the punch is" which is not a block but rather a combination of deft footwork and body control.

 

when youre in your stance and when blocking punches, just how far do your hands come away from your face?

 

Depends on what is necessary for protection and what you want to do with his strike. But AK teaches never to move more than you need to. Never do what you'll have to undo, and no wasted movement. Those wide blocks tend to leave you open and off ballance (or at least in a position to be easily unballanced). Sometimes your 'block' is right by and in contact with your head. Example: and upward elbow strike is the same as an upward elbow block. Which is another thing about our blocks- they seldom just block, and often don't even block. A block should do more than just stop a strike. It should establish some kind of control over your opponent. Obviously, as a begginer, blocks mostly block. But early on the concept is expanded to be offensive and proactive, not just defensive.

 

Back to distance, we have several kinds of blocks that are drilled in our basics. Take outward blocks. An extended outward goes out 45' from your torsoe, and all angles are at 45'. Useful for things like street roundhouse punches, but we'd never use it for something like a straightpunch. A short outward is in closer, andis used a lot more than an extended outward. A vertical outward has the forearm straight up and not as far from your face. Getting in closer, there are other blocks that are right up by your face/head. Probably sounds like overkill, and maybe a little confusing. But the idea is to train to put up only what you need.

and when you block a punch, how exactly do you do it- deflect to the side, absorb, etc?

 

Again, depends on what you have to work with and what you want to do. Sometimes our blocks are more to move him than to protect us. We train to move the target as we block, so the block either opens him up, or drives his arm across his body, or something else nefariouse in intent. If the target isn't there, the block usually isn't needed for defense. We also have a full arsenal of parries, checks, cranes, etc. to do whatever we want. Another thing we do that I love is to hook our blocks. This can pull your opponent in just enough to momentarily upset his ballance, and even if you only get the punch on its' way back it can work better than getting it on its' way in. Works great like that for jabs in close.

 

Another thing we do a lot of is double factor our blocks, or throw a minor then a major block. This is often done when steping back from a forceful strike, especially kicks. The minor block is the first thrown, and has less power but gets there faster. Since you are moving out of the way, it probably won't even make contact with the strike. The major block is thrown to move him positionally, not to protect you. Another reason we may throw up a minor block is as a check in case he changes the trajectory of his strike. We don't double factor every block because it isn't allways necessary, and in the wrong circumstances could leave you open.