FORMS: USING THEM IN A ACTUAL FIGHT & SPARRING

[SevenStar]

As forums, do you mean Kata. I think you aren't supposed to or porb cant use a full kata in a fight becuase it is so unpredictable. But I think it is a mans of learning and practicing different blocks, kicks, punches etc... in a organized way. It would be the most efficant way to practice in my wa of thinking. Of course this is my opinion right now and it might change over time becuase I just started MA.

 

Like I said, break them down into individual techniques and drill them. You WON'T use the entire form in a fight. A form is just that - a form. It's a catalog of your style's techniques that makes it easier to remember and learn them all. The way they are put together should teach you footwork - how to transition from one technique to the next, and should teach you the principles of the system - various concepts, prinicples of motion, etc. The forms teach you how to move usiing your style, not how to fight.

 

take each individual movment and drill the application of it with a partner. NOW you are learning how to fight.

[SevenStar]

I have studied taegeuks, palgueys (sp?) and chun gi patterns. I can see how they are beneficial for muscle memory, stamina, flow, etc. Most of the moves in taegeuks and palgueys are appicable, however, there are some moves in the chun gi patterns that seem like total crap. i've asked several Instructors in the area thier use and have come up empty-handed.

 

I have also learned some Kenpo forms like Long form 6. i can see how these are applicable. Seems like the Chinese forms are more useable than some of the Korean forms.

 

Anyone else notice this?

 

aren't those the new wtf forms? forms of the sport art? yeah, that's probably correct - you will find the same thing if you compare traditional forms with modern chinese wushu forms - they are for performance and don't have any real applicability. You will find the same with XMA kata. If you look at some classical korean forms, like from tang soo do or kuk sool won, you'll see more applicability.

[SevenStar]

Katas are fighting multiple people simultaniously. But I dont think there can be a threesome sparring match.

 

I think this is why many people think katas are useless...

[cross]

I think this is why many people think katas are useless...

 

I agree with this, the idea that you are fighting multiple opponents at the same time is not the purpose of kata.

 

Its ok to visualise that your fighting one guy for some of the moves, then you move onto another guy and another. This may well work for multiple opponents if there attack corresponds with the sequence of the kata, but usually its better to breakdown your kata with the idea of fighting one person. That way if you ever have to face multiple opponents (good luck to you) you can face each guy ideally (but not likely) taking parts from different kata.

[Bleeding Lion]

I study goju ryu currently. there is a paragraph in "the fundamentals of goju ryu" that explains the purpose of something like stances very well, and i think its relevant for many arts. i understood forms in general much better.

 

if you know the sanchin dachi stance for instance, the most basic stance in goju, you'll see that it looks funny. however its purpose is not to fight a real fight in that stance, but to teach you how to balance your body. it makes a lot of sense cause sanchin dachi strengthens your legs and makes you grip the floor.

 

katas are not meant to to be applied straight in real life situations. the masters who designed them knew better. it helps you practice the flow of multiple techniques, get reflexes, and as someone else said, your muscle memory. moreover, you are also supposed to find out the "hidden techniques" of katas. for example, when you do that punch, kick or block, how can you apply it differently or how can you follow up? imagine a situation where you could apply a certain sequence in a kata, is that the only situation or can you think of other ones? basically forms in general can only show you the doors and it is your job to open them.

[kempocos]

Katas are fighting multiple people simultaniously. But I dont think there can be a threesome sparring match.

 

From your statement I think you need better instruction. We sparring 2, 3 , 4 on 1 all the time. If only one explaination for any move in the KATA is being taught then there is much missing from your training.

 

I agree that the KATA bashing comes from the mindset that the KATA is a grouping of moves that must be kept in oreder and only address ONE type of situation.

[jarrettmeyer]

To make a short story long, I think that a better argument is to train until you don't have to think. The forms should help you with this.

 

It's a perfect paradox. We study the detail of the kata. We learn the bunkai. We learn stances and breathing and technique. We practice combos on the bag.

 

Then, when we get to the sparring ring, or - even worse - a real fight, we must only think about right now. You have done all of that studying so that you don't have to think about anything when the time comes.

 

When I used to fence, we had this chart on the wall that showed success rates based on time spent fencing. The most success was experienced by those with over 4 years or less than 4 months. Why did the newbies do so well? Because they had nothing to think about other than scoring the touch. The newbie and the expert are very similar in mentality. Newbies don't think about a proper lunge or good footwork keeping the back straight. It is that time in the middle that you are the biggest threat to yourself. In those middle years, you are thinking, "I leaned over on that last lunge," or, "I bent my wrist too much on that parry #6."

[ShirKhan]

In my humble O the secret is to train with forms like you should be training with everything else...as if your life depended on your performance.

 

If you do forms as if you are practicing against actual opponents...and QUESTION the forms..."what if they block this? What if this needs a followup?" etc...then a different part of your brain, a part that thinks and responds rather than digs up rote memory from the archives.

 

More than once I've responded "spontaneously" in a extracurricular conflict and only realized later that my move was not something I came up with out of thin air, it was actually a sequence from one form or practiced technique or another.

[shotochem]

In my humble O the secret is to train with forms like you should be training with everything else...as if your life depended on your performance..

 

Agreed. Excellent point.

 

Every form should be practiced and look as if you are actually trying to break something.

 

Every block has to look like and actually work if someone were to throw an attack while you were doing your form.(this is on of my Senseis favorite pastimes ).

 

Basically is has to look, feel, and actually be capable of doing physical damage for it to really be what kata is IMO.

 

 

 

If you are not giving it 100% all the time it becomes nothing more than a pretty dance. You can easily tell when watching their kata performance how tough they would be to fight.

 

If it looks like it's gonna hurt ....It Will!!!

[benkendrick]

From teaching TKD for 6 years I can tell you that forms shouldn't even be thought about when fighting. The only reason we teach them is because the WTF requires them for certification. I tell students that forms are the art portion of martial arts then there is the practical side of martial arts.

 

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