Who Put the "Traditional" in Traditional Karate?

[Shorin Ryuu]

I apologize for thread necromancy of the worst sort (reviving your own dead threads), but I've decided to come back after an extended absence, and this is an article as opposed to other threads.

Shorin Ryuu - Nice article, some interesting concepts in there, and most of them I agree with.

What is your definition of traditional Kata?

My definition of traditional kata are those that retain their original meaning as transmitted to them by either the originators of the kata or by those who had the approval of those kata originators (usually karate masters in their own right). This means there probably are much fewer 100% traditional kata, but there are a lot of somewhat traditional kata.

An example of this would be Chibana Chosin preserving the kata of Itosu, who preserved the kata of Matsumura (with personal modifications). Chibana Sensei then passed the kata on to my instructor, who preserves them with a few modifications that Chibana either personally approved and/or still retains the same meaning as the original movements.

When I refer to meaning, I am referring to what most people call "bunkai", which is much more of a recent term. Back in the day, they just used "imi", which literally means "meaning".

What do you think about some of the Kata that is being thrown around nowadays?

I don't have that high an opinion of them.

And lastly, what is your Kata syllabus?

Our empty hand syllabus is the core Chibana kata syllabus, which Chibana Sensei consulted with Itosu over and Itosu approved.

Kihon Shodan, Nidan, Sandan (Chibana Sensei's creations)

Naihanchi Shodan, Nidan, Sandan

Pinan Shodan, Nidan, Sandan, Yondan, Godan

Patsai Sho, Patsai Dai

Kusanku Sho, Kusanku Dai

Chinto

Chibana Sensei knew other kata, but he did not consider them as part of the core Shorin Ryu kata and did not teach them much. He felt it was better to refine rather than to learn too many kata.

[INSKMITHADDICT]

You are exactly right. I believe that you must in any situation use non traditional movements/forms/katas. You must learn to be fluid not in form. although katas help you learn discapline etc. etc. And bascially give honor to the elders like Hanshi SHugoro Nakazato, Hanshi Tadashi Yamashita,Hanshi Matayoshi and many of the past master whom have dedicated their lifes to formaing katas. I would write a whole heck of alot more but I believe in being short.

[Shorin Ryuu]

? I said nothing of the sort. And actually, my views on karate have evolved some since I have written this piece (although the basic tenets are the same). I strongly believe that you should fight in the same manner and style as your kata. I don't do kata to honor Chibana Sensei, although he is highly deserving of honor, I do kata to be a great fighter.

[INSKMITHADDICT]

I am talking about when in a true fight sense, You cant tell me that you would stand shoulders square and front kick like you learn or practise in katas. And further more I was agreeing with you then adding my own view of what I feel is right. I to practice to be a great fighter but not in the same sense. when I practice a kata I do think of the person whom created it and what they were thinking when they concepted it and what I can do to improve it for myself. You cant apply a kata to a everyday event but use bits and pieces, if you do you'll either get yourself killed or severly made fun of. that's my view.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I see.

I am also speaking of fighting in a true sense. If you cannot fight well in the same manner that you do your kata, then there are some general assumptions you can make. Either you do not understand your well enough because you lack the ability or you simply weren't shown, or the kata you are doing isn't worth doing.

It is a matter of common sense. If the way in which you do your kata is very impractical for a real fight, then it is very impractical for you to even do kata in the first place.

I am not saying that kata is used for preprogrammed responses to events that occur in a fight. I am saying that the way you execute techniques in the kata should be the same way you execute them in a real fight. For example, I wouldn't stand with my shoulders square and front kick like that because that's not how we do our kata.

[bushido_man96]

I am not saying that kata is used for preprogrammed responses to events that occur in a fight. I am saying that the way you execute techniques in the kata should be the same way you execute them in a real fight. For example, I wouldn't stand with my shoulders square and front kick like that because that's not how we do our kata.

I can see the points that you are making. However, there are techniques done in forms that I would not do them in a fight. For instance, pulling the off hand to the ribs or hip when performing a reverse punch. I would keep the off hand up, to protect my head.

[INSKMITHADDICT]

I tend to agree with Bashido_man69 in what he has said. What I am sayig is there are some offensive and defensive movements that you would use and when you sit back and look at these and compaire them to what is taught they are some what different. I to would block my head and any other areas that are vital in different ways other then shown in katas like the high and low blocks. I also do not stand in some of the crouch postions that are taught too. I do maintain balance and all that good stuff and defensively give punches that usually end right then and there. I understand your view point completely. But in a manner of speaking they are yours and others in this same style may have very different feelings as I have stated Hanshi Tadashi Yamashita. I don't know if you have ever met him, he is a very nice man. I have read alot of what you have written and I agree with some of it but not all of it. Remember a pond without fish is not worth looking and a valley without life is not worth the journey. You should consider other peoples views and apply them as you would any other thing you learn. Thats is what makes us human and not robots. Just as I have read what you have I will take what I have learned from you and apply it the way I have learned it. Thats the way I am.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I never said I didn't consider what you said; I just don't agree with you. If the movements are not practical, and I've stated my theories on why they would not be, then I feel there is no point in doing them.

Like one famed radio talk show host says, I prefer clarity to agreement. If we do not agree, then that is fine. And like my instructor Pat Nakata says, I think it is nice that we can agree to disagree without becoming disagreeable.

I look forward to continued interchange in the future.

[INSKMITHADDICT]

I see what you are saying, but think for a second here in what you are saying. Now for example if you were to say I dont want to do this kata to a master and go on and tell him why etc. This of coarse would either end up with you doing one or two things alot of sit ups and push ups or being thrown out for not listening to them. From the beginning you are taught to replicate kata by other people with only two choices either do it and stay or dont do it and well go on your way. Most of the time through past experience if you happen to go off coarse in any manner you end up punished. This is my past experience and I am sure other people can relate. A few extra sit ups or push up never hurt anyone but does teach people not to be devine of their own inspiration. Maybe on that Island you can be more individual and do what you want when you want ,but not so much here. I believe in using movements that do something directly with a no beat around the bush type attitude applied. I dont believe any kata what so ever can be applied to any given situation without a bend in its form. You must adapt to that situation and use what is best for the best outcome. This is my view.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I see what you are saying, but think for a second here in what you are saying. Now for example if you were to say I dont want to do this kata to a master and go on and tell him why etc. This of coarse would either end up with you doing one or two things alot of sit ups and push ups or being thrown out for not listening to them.

If an instructor had to resort to simple pushups and situps and couldn't explain to me logically (or physically via demonstration) why a certain movement would work and how, then I wouldn't care to train with that instructor anymore. Besides... having to resort to pushups and situps seems like a way to deal more with teenagers or kids rather than rational adults... I don't mean to pry, but how old are you? Or does he make adults do pushups and situps as punishment as well? No insult intended, I am just curious as to how he runs the class.

This of coarse would either end up with you doing one or two things alot of sit ups and push ups or being thrown out for not listening to them.

And if you are thrown out, what's the worst that could happen? If I don't believe a teacher is teaching me practical fighting methods, I'm not going to train under him. Kata is at the heart of traditional karate, so I'm not going to train with an instructor who does not have fighting applicable kata. Fighting applicable kata is kata that will work in a fighting situation without having to modify it.

I am a strong proponent of doing kata, as you can tell by my article. I do the kata my instructor trains me in because he explains to me very logically how it works, demonstrates how it works, and doesn't resort to simply saying "because I said so." Worst comes to worst, he can show me rather painfully how it works. Do I challenge him on every movement? No. Do I ask him every time I have a question? Yes. Does he appreciate that? Yes.

Maybe on that Island you can be more individual and do what you want when you want ,but not so much here.

The vast majority of my training has been on the mainland... that isn't the issue whatsoever.

I believe in using movements that do something directly with a no beat around the bush type attitude applied.

It is ironic that we disagree, then. My movements are just like the movements in my kata: direct. I don't add anything, I don't take anything away. Again, if the moves are too flashy or impractical, then the odds are there is something wrong with the kata or you don't understand it well enough.

I dont believe any kata what so ever can be applied to any given situation without a bend in its form.

Perhaps I need to clarify. The way you step in the kata should be the way you step in a fight. The way you punch in the kata should be the way you punch in a fight. So on and so forth. Will the height be perhaps different? Certainly, if you are fighting an opponent of a different height. What's the important thing you glean from the kata? It's how you do things. If I have to modify how I do my movement, then I'd be better of practicing the movement the modified way.

Bottom line: Why waste time doing kata if you're not going to fight like you execute in the kata? Paying respect to a master isn't good enough for me.