How to fight a WRESTLER with martial arts

[tommarker]

I think there are 4 distinct advantages that your average "varsity high school wrestler" has over MOST martial artists:

 

1. An impressive level of both strength and endurance, especially in relation to their size.

 

2. They tend to be able to take a lot of pain, and can endure many wrist and elbow locks, especially poorly applied ones.

 

3. Wrestlers earn their advantage by off-balancing their opponent, and are extremely good at it.

 

4. Wrestlers have an aggressive forward drive that is very hard to overcome if you're trying to be defensive.

[jarrettmeyer]

And tommarker takes us back to the "It's not the art, it's the artist," statement.

 

I would also agree with tommarker that like boxers and muay thai practicioners, wrestlers as a group train for COMBAT more seriously than karateka.generalization> But, as always, see sentence #1.

 

A karateka will do everything in his power to make you fight his fight. If the karateka is skilled in grappling, then guess what? That's still his fight. If the karateka is skilled in elbows, gouges, arm bars, and chokes, then he is still comfortable. If the karateka is not prepared for this type of attack, but still well-trained, then he will adapt.

 

Regardless of technique, the rules of engagement never change. Fight on your terms. Control distance. Feint. Move. Counter attack. Whoever does this better will prevail.

[Red J]

I think there are 4 distinct advantages that your average "varsity high school wrestler" has over MOST martial artists:

 

1. An impressive level of both strength and endurance, especially in relation to their size.

 

2. They tend to be able to take a lot of pain, and can endure many wrist and elbow locks, especially poorly applied ones.

 

3. Wrestlers earn their advantage by off-balancing their opponent, and are extremely good at it.

 

4. Wrestlers have an aggressive forward drive that is very hard to overcome if you're trying to be defensive.

 

All good points as on the average team you have to "earn" your spot in order to wrestle. The competition is always looking for your job and conditioning is at a premium.

[DokterVet]

Tank had zero technique - he was just a brawler. He is a perfect example of what you want to train to deal with in the street. He was thrashing these highly trained MA left and right, and he had virtually no training at all - he just liked to fight.

 

Yeah Tank is a born fighter, but he also had another advantage that some people don't give him credit for. The man was incredibly strong. He had a bench press of over 600 lbs. So although he wasn't exactly your typical MAist, he did train very hard to develop his strength and power.

 

That said, Maurice Smith and others have since shown him what great MA skills can do.

[Gumbi]

Well, I guess I'll throw my two cents in here:

 

First off, Tommaker is absolutely correct- wrestlers are quite possibly THE most conditioned athletes you're going to meet (and its all fast twitch muscle fibers too).

 

Anyways, as many others have said, if you dont wish to be taken to the ground, then you have to learn how its done- only then will you know effective defenses. However, WAY too many people dont quite understand how difficult it still is to keep someone from taking you down, EVEN if you're knowledgable. Once you're in the clinch, it becomes a grappling fight, and striking goes out the window here (knees and elbows can be used, but they're effective ONLY when control of the clinch is made). Remember that wrestlers are training ALL the time in taking OTHER wrestlers down who have MUCH better defense than YOU (and they dont want to be taken down either). What Im trying to get at here is dont just train a sprawl for 2 weeks and think you know it- drill the * out of it- think about how much catching up you'd have to do to a senior high school wrestler who's done it for about 6 years.

 

Now, I can tell you what I like to look for when taking a striker down-

 

1:anytime they cross their feet or bring them closer than shoulder width- thats an easy double leg(watch when Judo guys move side to side for example- its a basic footsweep drill they use).

 

2: watch for a high base- some karate/TMA's have a habit of fighting in a low stance (dont blow up on me- I said SOME). If at any time they raise themselves out of this low stance (say, to move closer) thats a good time to attack since they're off balance, and harder for them to sprawl.

 

3: watch the power hand- once in striking range, thats technically also grappling range- in the time it takes for me to close the distance to a clinch, chances are you'll only have one chance to unload a very powerfull shot with your rear hand. Someone said that grapplers wont mind taking a shot on the way in if it means getting you where they want, but that doesnt mean they're running in hands low with their jaw sticking out. Double forearms is a nice blocking method (The Gracies used this alot). Once in close enough for a clinch, its not all that difficult to swim your arms in for underhooks.

 

I think one of the best examples of a striker being able to stop a grapplers game is Mirko Cro Cop. He uses a basic front bearhug defense against underhooks, and has a very good sprawl.

[Gumbi]

First of all I think we have to bear in mind that you are talking about a trained karateka and a trained wrestler here. Therefore you would hope that the karateka could snap out a low kick, or a punch before the wrestler gets the chance to grab. I don't think it's fair to say that a wrestler would definitely win or a karateka would definitely win, it would be down to whomever was most skilled (and perhaps a bit of luck on that day).

 

Well, you're right about whomever is skilled in their art, but for arguments sake lets assume that both our fighters have been training for roughly the same period of time. Its MUCH easier for someone to force a grappling game than it is for someone to force a striking game. Its not as easy to knock someone out as we'd all like to think. Think of a boxing match for example- how many times to the fighters clinch? What would happen if a referee werent there to break you up? Beyond that, Im sure theres been times where you've been sparring at your school, and you and your friend found yourselves a little too close to each other (for example, chest to chest where TKD tournaments see alot of push off jump kicks or crescent kicks). Well, thats right about the distance a wrestler is pretty strong. I only say this because repeated fights have shown this same repeated pattern.

 

 

so the actual chances of two trained MA practitioners coming up against each other in a real street fight would be slim anyway.

 

I agree, but you dont have to be a grappler to try to take someone to the ground, just as you dont have to be a boxer to throw a punch, karate fighter to throw a kick. Common things that happen in real fights are haymakers, headlocks, and tackles. If you tag someone up, chances are he's going to try to grab you and clinch so as not to get hit anymore (much like a boxing match when a strong punch is scored). Now, sometimes people can just break away and continue fighting on the feet, but why would he do this if you're kicking his *? Hes probably thinking along the lines of "that son of a ......." and is going to try to tear your head from your shoulders, which will likely end up on the groudn.

 

Also, tackling someone to the ground and beating the hell out of them is a popular tactic since the general public sees a man on his back as helpless.

I say that I'm sorry but you do not see people rolling around on the floor grappling in the same way two trained BJJ fighters grapple.

 

Also the point about security taking people to the ground is, I think, wrong. If you watch most fights in pubs or clubs most of the time a security guard just wants to remove the trouble as soon as possible. They often do this by storming the person and overwhelming them (often by pure numbers) and then forcefully dragging them out. They may sometimes put a choke, arm bar or neck bar on etc. to help them on their way and help ensure the person cannot resist but they tend to not go to the floor (unless someone trips). Well I practice arm bars, chokes and headlocks in my karate anyway (and how to get out of them).

 

You're talking about fights that have been interrupted- I've gotten into similar arguments with people who thought that fights last 5 seconds. its kinda funny, you just reminded me of that scene in "Dazed and Confused"

 

"Hey man, all fights only last a few seconds, so I hit him with a few good shots, it gets broken up and he has to live with that * forever"

 

In such a situation where a fight is broken up, learning a style of self defense isnt all that neccessary, because its broken up by a third party. But what happens when NO ONE intervenes? I have numerous DVD's of streetfights (as well as plenty downloaded from online) and practically ALL (I remember being all, but dont want to say 100%) of these fights GO TO THE GROUND, and THAT is what is meant by a street altercation.

I guess it just depends on the individual fighter

 

It comes down to the individual fighter when fighters cross train, as in today's MMA tournaments. While there is no guarentee that a fighter of a specific style will ALWAYS win a fight over another, there are odds that determine a specific styles effectiveness. Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, and other martial arts have BAD track records in MMA competition, whereas Wrestling, Judo, and BJJ have good ones. While this doesnt mean you cant be a competent fighter with one of these arts, you have to admit that the overwhelming success of these specific styles speak for themselves

[SevenStar]

I completely forgot about this post - I had meant to respond to it.

First of all I think we have to bear in mind that you are talking about a trained karateka and a trained wrestler here.

 

that was my assumption.

Therefore you would hope that the karateka could snap out a low kick, or a punch before the wrestler gets the chance to grab. I don't think it's fair to say that a wrestler would definitely win or a karateka would definitely win, it would be down to whomever was most skilled (and perhaps a bit of luck on that day). Of course I personally believe that the vast majority that really throw themselves into intense training are doing it for self-defence, physical fitness, way of life etc. so the actual chances of two trained MA practitioners coming up against each other in a real street fight would be slim anyway.

 

slim chance is still chance. you should prepare for the worst, no? Snapping a low kick out is what he wants....he will follow your limb back in afterward, unless your strike completely stops him. It's not hard for a wrestler to take someone down if they are determined - whether the opponent is trained or not. That why it helps to train takedown defenses against them - it will increase your chances of staying on your feet.

Secondly, I have had several years worth of working in bars and pubs in the past, including ones in a pretty rough city. I have also dated a bar security personnel (bouncer) and my dad was a cop, so therefore I do have some experience of what I am talking about when I say that I'm sorry but you do not see people rolling around on the floor grappling in the same way two trained BJJ fighters grapple. At no point is this a criticism of the art, I'll be the first to agree that neither do you get two people sqaured up bouncing around doing reverse punches and above the belt kicks in a real fight.

 

I've worked security also, in a city with one of the highest crime and rape rates in the country... that doesn't matter, really. Sticking with the bar example, there are a few flaws with what you say -

 

1. things happen. plain and simple. bars are crowded, floors are wet, people fall. Will all fights end up on the ground in a bar? No. But the fact is that some of them will. when a 300 lb guy slips and drags you down, he's now on the floor with you, doing ground and pound. If you dont know how to get up, you're done.

Also the point about security taking people to the ground is, I think, wrong. If you watch most fights in pubs or clubs most of the time a security guard just wants to remove the trouble as soon as possible. They often do this by storming the person and overwhelming them (often by pure numbers) and then forcefully dragging them out. They may sometimes put a choke, arm bar or neck bar on etc. to help them on their way and help ensure the person cannot resist but they tend to not go to the floor (unless someone trips). Well I practice arm bars, chokes and headlocks in my karate anyway (and how to get out of them).

 

you're making the same mistake that alot of people make - you are assuming that grappling implies ground grappling. It does not. there is the clinch, standing locks and restraints, etc. If for whatever reason I need to restrain them on the ground, that's great, but grappling is not limited to that. you said yourself that they may put someone in a choke hold. Who would be more adept at that - the striker or the grappler? you may practice them, but what you do is nowhere near to the extent of how much a grappler trains them, obviously.

I guess it always comes down to the individual fighter. I suspect somebody that trains in sport karate would easily get overwhelmed by a wrestler, but someone with more practical knowledge may be able to hold their own.

 

I doubt it. the issue isn't the fighter or what style they train in. the issue is the method of training.

Each art has their pros and cons, but I think it would be mad to say for definite that either the BJJ practitioner or the karateka would win.

 

that I do agree with.

[Dobbersky]

Wow, what a thread, its amazing what you can find with the Search button

[The BB of C]

I suggest training your reflexes against a tackle. Practice bringing one knee up as hard and fast as possible. It'll go right into the jaw if you do it right.

[bushido_man96]

This is a nice thread. I will have to dig in here...