How to fight a WRESTLER with martial arts

[Drunken Monkey]

martial arts is still a petty small scene.

 

maybe not small, but certainly not mainstream.

 

i see the occasional flyer for judo clubs and jujutsu (not that many bjj places) on church hall boards and sports halls but from observations,

 

most of these are aimed towards the childrens market.

 

i wouldn't say that the grappling arts are anywhere near the majority of the practiced arts.

 

there's quite a (relatively) large judo scene but that seems to more geared towards sport type competition (if that means anything).

 

here, especially in my necks of the woods,

 

boxing and more-so these days, thai-boxing seem to be by far the more popular.

 

boxing is kinda part of the old 'traditional' life here and the kick-boxing/thai boxing seems to be an evolution of that.

[SevenStar]

that's cool. I've heard judo was pretty big over there - I was gonna bring that up. sport judo is as good as any - you will definitely learn how to throw effectively. judo and thai boxing is mainly what I do, so I'd probably like it over there

[AngelaG]

that's exactly my point. you're giving advice on something you're not completely clear on. a wrestler and a bjj guy have some similar tactics, but don't completely share the same arsenal. So, you may be thinking of what you would do to defend against something, but have it all wrong because you are actually talking about something different.

 

Ummm excuse me but I am not giving advice from a BJJ practioner's, a wrestler's or any other art other than Karate's point of view. All along I have said IT IS MY OPINION! How much clearer do you want me to put it?

 

Look under my name

 

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It says Shotokan Karate.... that's the angle I was approaching it from!

[AngelaG]

Wrestling is virtually unknown. There are a few BJJ clubs (one that trains at my dojo). I suspect judo is a bit more popluar, but I think sports like TKD and Karate are the most popular, with perhaps jiu-jutsu too.

[aefibird]

In my area of the UK (the north) boxing, kickboxing and TKD are the main MA's. However, as DM wrote "most of these are aimed towards the childrens market."

 

I only know of 1 BJJ club in the whole of the north of England - it's almost the same for JuJitsu and Judo. There are a few Judo places, but all are sport-orientated.

 

Wrestling is on a par with bobsledding in the UK - it's there but only for a very very very tiny minority. It certainly isn't a sport taught in schools, as is common in the USA.

[SevenStar]

that's exactly my point. you're giving advice on something you're not completely clear on. a wrestler and a bjj guy have some similar tactics, but don't completely share the same arsenal. So, you may be thinking of what you would do to defend against something, but have it all wrong because you are actually talking about something different.

 

Ummm excuse me but I am not giving advice from a BJJ practioner's, a wrestler's or any other art other than Karate's point of view. All along I have said IT IS MY OPINION! How much clearer do you want me to put it?

 

Look under my name

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

It says Shotokan Karate.... that's the angle I was approaching it from!

 

Once again, that's my whole point. Let's say I had never trained karate before. I come on a forum and give my opinion that you can easily beat a karate student simply by side kicking them constantly because they aren't used to side kicks. That's my opinion, but how much water would it hold? when someone on this forum tried it and lost repeatedly, they would think "ah, he didn't know what he was talking about" because my opinion was based on my *lack of* knowledge about karate.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I usually find such debates kind of repetitive. However, I will add just a few lines of my own.

 

There are a few things that I think this debate is missing, or perhaps not focusing on correctly.

 

The first is the wrestler's incredible vulnerability to strikes. Strikes have been brought up, but I think everyone is thinking of just punching, or even just elbowing (which are incredibly brutal in and of themeselves). In most people's mind, there is a tendency to think of some karateka in a low stance doing the generic lunge punch in one scene, and then trying to envision that same karateka in the next scene desperately trying to punch someone who has a hold of them. I beg you to rid yourself of this illusion.

 

And here's why. Dismissing the ability of someone to cause damage even while in a hold on the ground grossly underestimates or shows a lack of knowledge about the multiplicity of striking methods and targets that exist whilst in a hold. The use of the thumb as a weapon is perhaps one of the most useful things I have found in a situation where I have very limited mobility. But you have to remember, that in actuality and not only in cheesy stock phrases, every part of your body really is a weapon that can be brought to bear on your opponent.

 

The other part of the misunderstanding the argument towards striking is that it isn't necessarily always pain compliance. The most common line I always hear from my friends is that "Oh, but if I am pissed off, I could take all your hits and more." However, the pain is always a bonus, never a deciding factor. The purpose of any strike is to create a weakness in a hold or shift in the balance and connection between you and your opponent. If you don't have any basic concept of grappling or feeling the opponent in close range, then your karate is incomplete and not representative of true traditional karate. I'm sorry if I offend anyone with that remark, but karate at its roots, which is Okinawan karate, always emphasized heavy grappling and close in-fighting. They didn't have to practice exclusively on the ground because it was foolish to go to the ground, and because if they ever did, they would simply modify the principles they used in stand-up grappling to reach the ground. So maybe I'm cooking my books, so to speak, by requiring that the karateka who will be able to defend himself has experience with grappling. Therefore, I don't consider those that have not had any grappling to be practicing true traditional karate. True traditional karate's best pull for me is that it really is the bridge that gaps striking and grappling, in my opinion, as it emphasizes both very heavily. So if you want to say that "Yeah, but most karate places don't train in that matter", then I would agree and disagree. I would agree that most places calling themselves traditional karate do not. But I would disagree because places that teach traditional karate do involve heavy grappling.

 

Lastly, I've wrestled and tussled with my friends all during my four years in college. Many of them were wrestlers in high school, and were often state-level winners. One of them was a major in the Marine Corps who was a military cop and an instructor for one of the lamentably short and inadequate ground fighting course (8 hour-and-a-half lessons that were fun because we got to grapple, but very basic). A bit of them also did judo or bjj or other "grappling centered arts" (a term which I use facetiously, since I consider Okinawan karate to have a huge emphasis on grappling). I've been able to best them far, far more often than not playing by their rules by simply adapting my standup principles to the ground. When I am allowed to "cheat", I find that nearly everyone, regardless of experience, was incredibly vulnerable to short, directed strikes to sensitive (or not so sensitive) areas. Once I am allowed to do whatever I feel (and obviously not inflicting any sort of injury on them), I don't lose to them. You can attack the validity of my post by saying I'm making this up or perhaps exaggerating, and frankly, I don't care. However, I'm just bringing my wares to this marketplace of ideas...

[SevenStar]

Good post. These are what I like to see.

The first is the wrestler's incredible vulnerability to strikes. Strikes have been brought up, but I think everyone is thinking of just punching, or even just elbowing (which are incredibly brutal in and of themeselves). In most people's mind, there is a tendency to think of some karateka in a low stance doing the generic lunge punch in one scene, and then trying to envision that same karateka in the next scene desperately trying to punch someone who has a hold of them. I beg you to rid yourself of this illusion.

 

that's an illusion I don't have. If the grappler gets within range, however, you have a greater chance of being taken down than you do of stopping him. you have to keep him away from you. keep him contained - disallow forward momentum...

And here's why. Dismissing the ability of someone to cause damage even while in a hold on the ground grossly underestimates or shows a lack of knowledge about the multiplicity of striking methods and targets that exist whilst in a hold. The use of the thumb as a weapon is perhaps one of the most useful things I have found in a situation where I have very limited mobility. But you have to remember, that in actuality and not only in cheesy stock phrases, every part of your body really is a weapon that can be brought to bear on your opponent.

 

not a hold, a takedown. while you in the air and going backward, you are in trouble. Once you hit the ground, you can strike - if you can get the space. Speaking from my own preferred positions on the ground, I want to be in either two positions - mount or side mount. In the mount, I want to be deep - my knees should be in your armpits. From there, I don't have to worry about legs, and your arms can't touch anything significant. side mount doesn't leave the opponent with much either, however there are more targets available to you. I've had skin pinched, been poked, scratched, etc. though, and it hasn't really bothered me so far. About the most effective one thatps been tried on me so far though is someone pulling on the skin right around the rib cage. lol, and actually, it was a grappler who showed me that one.

The other part of the misunderstanding the argument towards striking is that it isn't necessarily always pain compliance. The most common line I always hear from my friends is that "Oh, but if I am * off, I could take all your hits and more." However, the pain is always a bonus, never a deciding factor. The purpose of any strike is to create a weakness in a hold or shift in the balance and connection between you and your opponent.

 

I completely agree. As with the example I gave above, the reason he pinched the skin was to get me to move enough that he could shift his weight and escape the pin.

 

 

If you don't have any basic concept of grappling or feeling the opponent in close range, then your karate is incomplete and not representative of true traditional karate. I'm sorry if I offend anyone with that remark, but karate at its roots, which is Okinawan karate, always emphasized heavy grappling and close in-fighting.

 

agree with that as well.

[Shorin Ryuu]

You're right, a lot of my post was more about a hold rather than the takedown itself. And for the record, most of my lamenting was not directed towards posters like yourself, SevenStar.

About the most effective one thatps been tried on me so far though is someone pulling on the skin right around the rib cage. lol, and actually, it was a grappler who showed me that one.

 

I love that method. I can't tell you how many bruises I would leave with (or leave others with) during many yakusoku kumite (arranged sparring sessions), studying kata bunkai, or just free sparring. These weren't necessarily just from strikes, but from grabbing skin and muscle tissue. I agree, a quite disconcerting sensation, and worrying to the recipient, depending how nice you are and what it is you are actually grabbing (skin, isolated muscle, connective tissue, etc). If possible, I find grabbing on two opposing sides of the body (vertical and/or horizontal) to be especially advantageous, and even more so depending on what you plan on doing.

[White Warlock]

That's what I was addressing above - he won't mind covering up and taking a few shots as long as his goal is accomplished. In addition to striking, you would have to be very mobile. But, IMO, you don't want to just side-back step as you stated in the next paragraph - you want to circle as well. He wants you going back anyway - he's driving forward, and you have less power while going back.

Agreed. However, i was taking into consideration what i've both witnessed and experienced with the majority of karate practitioners, and opted not to communicate 'mobility,' as this is often associated with 'sparring' and trading punches. Something you definitely should not do with a wrestler, for when it comes to their 'turn' it will be in the form of a takedown.

 

I also didn't want to encourage side-stepping forward, since this brings you closer to their range of control. However, i couldn't quite put into words the idea of circling your opponent, and thus opted to call it side-stepping backward, as i took into account that a wrestler would more than likely repeatedly attempt to advance.

 

Ah well.

true. There are several wrestling holds that do hurt though - the grapevine and crucifix come to mind. He could cross face you to death as well.

Hehe, the first two are more in the line of 'professional wrestling,' although they do have real life applicability. The crossface, one that does exist in sport wrestling, i'll have to disagree with you on this... only because of my personal failure when applying it. When i was 17 and getting ready for State competitions, i worked out with my brother, who had no wrestling background... but was a damn good brawler. I kept using the crossface on him and he told me to quit. I didn't listen, so he raised his upper body and shoved an elbow into my thigh. My leg was in a cast for months.

 

Simply put, the crossface only serves to agitate the opponent. It doesn't take them out. I would have been better off putting a choke hold on him. But, of course, that wasn't one of the 'permitted' options in sport wrestling. Which goes to one of my other issues. What you train in for sport could inadvertantly subject you to 'limited' thinking, even when you know better.

Keep in mind that since you're on the ground, as long as you keep striking the wrestler, you'll keep him out of his game.

That is easier said then done while you are being smothered, however.

Agreed. But then again, all of it is easier said than done.