shorin´s RYUKYU kata, and Matsumura Bassai

[tenkamusou]

hi... if anyone can send me the descriptions of this kata i´d apreciate... or knows any web site that has it!

 

I just watched Yoshihide Shinzato ( 10o. Dan in shorin ryu, the only 10o.dan here in Brazil ) doing them... and boy... that was amazing... so I´m tryin to learn them now! thanx!

[Ted T.]

I've never heard of Matsumura Bassai called RYUKYU kata, or are these two different kata?

 

I don't know of any place they are on-line...good luck,

[P.A.L]

I am not sure but I think matsumura passai is close to passai dai, there is clip of passai dai on https://www.wonder-okinawa.jp, I think Mckarthy(spl.?) explains this kata it his book too, I 'll check it out tonight.

[P.A.L]

I found Matsumura passai in classical kata of okinawa by pat Mccarthy,and as i thought it's %90 same as passai dai, also check on fuse kise his passai should be Matsumura passai too since he is student of hohan soken (Matsumura seito shorin ryu ).

[tenkamusou]

Matsumura Kata, and Matsumura Bassai is another...

 

PAL, I´ve seen a video of matsumura Bassai, and it´s nothing like bassai dai.... but thanx for the answers...

[Shorinryu Sensei]

hi... if anyone can send me the descriptions of this kata i´d apreciate... or knows any web site that has it!

 

I just watched Yoshihide Shinzato ( 10o. Dan in shorin ryu, the only 10o.dan here in Brazil ) doing them... and boy... that was amazing... so I´m tryin to learn them now! thanx!

 

Just for clarification purpose's, in my nearly 30 years of study in Shorinryu Matsumura Seito/Orthodox (we call it Kenpo now) I've never personally heard of a RyuKyu kata. KyuKyu refers to the island chain that makes up Okinawa. Not to say that there isn't a kata by that name, but it would no doubt be localized to the schools in Brazil perhaps?

 

Also, when talking about Okinawan kata, it is Passai...not the Japanese pronunciation of Bassai. I have seen a number of Japanese versions of Bassai kata, and although similar in execution, they are not the same kata and are, IMHO, lacking.

 

Another note is that Sensei Kise's versions of OSensei Hohan Soken's are with many modifications. I have not personally worked with Sensei Kise, but have talked to many of his former students that had trained with him for years and left him because of many of the changes he had done to the system. He is an awsome martial artist, but has wandered quite a bit in his teachings...or so I've heard.

 

My bud Shorin Ryuu will dive in here soon I'm sure and add further to this thread. he has better knowledge of a lot of this information than I do.

[P.A.L]

ok the first one you saw is hakutsuru kata from matsumura seito shorin-ryu, there are tens of them out there although Matsumura never tought that to anyone but his son.

 

-Ryuken(dragon fist) Sanchin .

 

-Matsumura no hakutsuru (sho and dai)

 

and some more

 

and could you explain how matsumura no passai is different from passai dai?

[P.A.L]

Shorinryu Sensei, I thought hohan soken had changed lots of katas when he came back from soth America, it's interesting that sensei kise gone the same way,

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Shorinryu Sensei, I thought hohan soken had changed lots of katas when he came back from soth America, it's interesting that sensei kise gone the same way,

 

I'd never heard that before, but of course, it's entirely possible. As I understand it he pretty much taught it they way he learned it. I've never been to Okinawa myself, but all of my instructors studied primarily there under Sensei's Kuda, Kise (all of them left Kise and went to Kuda though) and most under OSensei Soken also before he retired.

 

My primary Sensei, Dennis Miller, studied exclusively under Sensei Kuda and a bit under OSensei.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Well, I was staying away from posting in this thread simply because it was a request for online kata videos...

 

But, here goes, anyway.

 

P.A.L.: Since we're in the same system, I had the same observation about Matsumura Passai (sho) when I learned the version that Fuse Kise does. Like you said, it's perhaps 90% similar to Kobayashi's Passai Dai (with some different emphases all over the place). This would make sense, as Passai Dai in Kobayashi Shorin Ryu is supposed to be Matsumura's version, whereas Passai Sho is Itosu's version.

 

For Shorinryu Sensei's benefit, I learned Matsumura Shorin Ryu under the Kise lineage for a year. I had a chance to go to one of his seminars before (which was where I met my Matsumura teacher for a year). For what it's worth, Kise was one of the people who helped systematize Matsumura Seito Ryu in the beginning anyway. As far as him changing things, I'll take your word for it, as I don't have anything to compare it to.

 

Here and there, I've also heard that Hohan Soken had changed some of the kata after coming back from South America. Of course, on the other hand, I've heard that after he came back, he was disappointed in how things had changed the time he was gone...really at this point, everything is sort of hearsay.

 

As a side note, most of the kata clips you find on the wonder-okinawa site are either self-admittedly modified versions of the kata or manipulated via the camera angle so you don't see everything. Okinawan masters are loath to show everything in their full glory to the whole world (part of the reasoning I'm sure is after spending a lifetime mastering kata, why should they let joe schmoe take it and "learn it" and claim that they know style X?)