some wing chun stuff

[Nick_UKWC]

These are the most comlicated ways of explaining something which by its very nature should be so simple

[delta1]

These are the most comlicated ways of explaining something which by its very nature should be so simple

 

OK.

 

The center line is drawn vertically down the front center of yur body.

 

The mother line runs vertically through the central core of your body.

 

End of story.

 

The diagram I tried to draw sets up further possible discussion, which is what this forum is about. Just knowing they are there tells us nothing. These concepts are used for understanding and functioning effeciently and effectively in a fight. To do that, we need to understand them, not just be able to point to their location.

 

But, you're right. If you can't locate them it's hard to use or understand the principles they work with. Hope that's a little more clear. And, if the Monkey would get off the sauce and post part three, we could all lavish praise on him for sorting this out so well!

[Nick_UKWC]

The center line is drawn vertically down the front center of yur body.

 

The mother line runs vertically through the central core of your body.

 

Finally.

 

If that had been said in terms that simple right away everything else could have been discussion on that theme, rather than all this effort just to establish that yes indeed, we all knew what was meant afterall.

[delta1]

Nick... Why don't you explain your understanding of these concepts and the principles utilized with them? I'm not a WCer, and don't claim extensive knowlege of the variouse systems. I do have some familiarity with some of them, though. So, if you'd care to enlighten us, I and others would probably be interested. On the other hand, if you just want to tell me I overcomplicate things- heck fire, boy, I study American Kenpo-- that's what we do best!

Before I studied AK, a step was a step, a punch was a punch, and a kick was a kick.

 

As I studeid AK, a step was no longer a step, a punch was no longer a punch, and a kick was no longer a kick.

 

Now thatI've studied AK, a step is again a step, a punch is again a punch, and a kick is again a kick.

[Nick_UKWC]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was having a pop at you. To be honest I'm probably just being a little difficult. I'm sure my understanding of these principles a rudimentary at best after just a years training. I have always known what DM calls the motherline as the centre line, we don't use the theory of the central plain either (yet) so I'm not really sure why it's needed. Hopefully more on that later though

 

Really the reason I posted in the first place was because obviously a little clarity was needed on what is a key principle of Wing Chun. I explained it as I saw fit and that was dismissed out of hand, even though what I said was a perfectly adequate way of dealing with the confusion.

 

Anyway as you said the crux of the issue here is the application of these things we've spent so long naming and pointing out

 

The overall principle as DM said is to dominate the centre. If we imagine two fighters face to face, there is no inherent advantage to either ones position. We learn and practise to exploit angles of attack so that you can remain facing their centre while stopping them from facing yours giving you a natural advantage.

 

William Cheung for instance borrows very heavily on this principle for his modern 'tactical defence' training, emphasising control of the elbow on the outside gate (blind side as he puts it) to allow the use of two arms on your part, but just one on theirs.

 

This directly ties in with the use of inside and outside 'gates' in Wing Chun. Something we've been specifically learning to recognise and take advantage of. I'm not sure how adequate a description of gates I can give without an example, or indeed if anyone really wants to know my opinion so we'll save that for now.

 

One other thing, it would seem almost impossible to me that all martial arts do not follow the same principles in one form or another. They seem very obvious and naturally advantageous.

[Drunken Monkey]

give me some time with part3.

 

still trying to decide what bits to go on to.....

 

but seeing as there's an immediate question here.

 

in chinese there is "chung sing" (centre/middle line) and "mo gee sing" (mother/son line).

 

it's not strictly a wing chun thing as it's in all chinese syles that i know off.

 

the centre line is about dividing gates and visualising targets/entry/receiving.

 

the mother line is more about structure, movement, facing and how you generally move.

 

as for what william cheung and what he calls the 'blind side'.

 

when he talks in chinese, he still talks about inside/outside gates.

 

the central plane is to do with facing.

 

you generaly work along the plane.

 

some places describe this plane as simply the plane that join yours and your opponent's centrelines/motherlines.

 

in most cases this is sufficient but it tends to lack an element of the direction you face/point.

 

simple example (which is going to be mentioned in the next post....).

 

there is a principle that goes

 

'everything points to the centre'.

 

the motherline just makes it easier to visualise.

 

on a deeper level

 

it also draws a distiction between entering and striking.

 

i.e you enter using the centreline as a guide and strike using the motherline (or what happens to the motehrline) as a guide.

[delta1]

Nick, not a problem! Anyone who's been here a while will tell you I wasn't kidding about the 'overcomplication' of simple things.

I have always known what DM calls the motherline as the centre line, we don't use the theory of the central plain either (yet) so I'm not really sure why it's needed.

 

Probably so you all could confuse everyone as well! Several years ago, after I was first introduced to WC, I sort of hung out on a WC forum for a bit. You guys argue more tha AK about sophisticated (a.k.a. complicated) basics!

The overall principle as DM said is to dominate the centre. If we imagine two fighters face to face, there is no inherent advantage to either ones position. We learn and practise to exploit angles of attack so that you can remain facing their centre while stopping them from facing yours giving you a natural advantage. William Cheung for instance borrows very heavily on this principle for his modern 'tactical defence' training, emphasising control of the elbow on the outside gate (blind side as he puts it) to allow the use of two arms on your part, but just one on theirs. This directly ties in with the use of inside and outside 'gates' ...

 

Yep. This is part of AK's zone and demensional control theory. As I said earlier, every ma has to addres this somehow, and some do a betterf job of it than others. Actually, if you get outside and control their elbow, you can neutralize all his natural weapons while tieing up only one of yours. A hard press inward and across will not only check that elbow and arm, it will turn him off center and take his ballance, momentarily making it impossible for him to counterattack.

One other thing, it would seem almost impossible to me that all martial arts do not follow the same principles in one form or another. They seem very obvious and naturally advantageous.

 

Agreed. Principles remain constant. Differences lie mostly in what the variouse ma's emphasize and how they train.

[delta1]

the centre line is about dividing gates and visualising targets/entry/receiving.

 

This is what I was talking about in the posts on visualization!

the mother line is more about structure, movement, facing and how you generally move.

 

I'm probably overcomplicating things again, but I tend to relate them both to structure. From the post where I tried to explain my view of center line, mother line (I like that term for center- think I'll plagerise it if you don't mind ) and central line to aefibird:

think of that pane of glass running from his motherline to your motherline, through both your centerlines. This is a neutral position, with neither of you having an advantage positionally. But if you can move that glass, or move him in relation to it, so that it still rests on the central line between you and him. But, since you control the central line, and by extension the central plane, it runs in a straight line from your motherline to his centerline, but angles off to his motherline. This is a week position for him, as you have leverage as depicted in the top diagram. You also have positional advantage in that half his weapons are further away while all yours are in battery.

 

When you move him off the central line, the line running from his center line to his mother line is angled off, representing broken structure. And his structure is even more broken if you tip the line in relation to ground or apply torsional force to it. Again, just how I look at things- not necessarily the way any WC system does it. But you do seem to be going that direction here:

there is a principle that goes

 

'everything points to the centre'.

 

the motherline just makes it easier to visualise.

 

on a deeper level.