some wing chun stuff

[Drunken Monkey]

a while back, someone asked for some info about wing chun with a more personal slant.

 

also asked for details of things taht are done.

 

i started by posting this:

 

TRAINING IN TECHNIQUES 1: THE FORMS

 

i guess the best place to start is by describing the purpose of the forms.

 

each of the three hand forms represents a stage in training.

 

the things featured in the forms are not only done as they are in the form,

 

nor are they taught exclusively in the forms.

 

if you need to turn make something work, i will tell you to turn.

 

BUT

 

technically, the turn isn't shown until the second form.

 

the forms are just a reference point;

 

something that has been collected, that contains the core movements

 

so that you can practice them in an orderly fashion.

 

(i'm gonna give direct transaltions of the names of the forms as i can't be bothered with the romanisations....)

 

"LITTLE IDEA in your HEAD"

 

the first is your catalogue of hand positions/techniques/movements.

 

everything is in this form (except about 5 'moves')

 

you only 'use' one hand at a time in the form.

 

there is no foot movement in the form.

 

(footwork is shown 'separately'........ almost)

 

as you are learning/training in this form, you should be shown how to take it apart and apply it in a live scenario.

 

as such, there are no fixed techniques or sets of applications of techniques.

 

what you use depends on what you are good at and what is happening.

 

'sparring' at this point would be no more than drills of which there are many.......

 

we like to let the students think of drills and then they'd run them by us.

 

we would then give our opinions and offer an alternative if neccessary.

 

the nature of these drills is to let the student get used to be able to

 

i) recognise what a movement can do

 

ii) decrease the amount of time spent thinking in a 'live' situation

 

iii) let the student get used to using what are quite 'un-natural' hand/arm positions.

 

iv) get used to someone coming in with a 'hard' punch.

 

as you can imagine, this kind of drilling easily leads to almost 'free' fighting as they test different possibilities.

 

how hard you go during these drills depends on how comfortable you are

 

and what you are training

 

(i.e training position is different to training footwork, even though you might use the exact same steps+hand techniques)

 

as i said before, the first form has no foot work in it.

 

as such, during the first stage of drills/sparring,

 

the student will come across some problems that the first form does not deal with (as it it shows 'perfect' positions).

 

this is where the second form comes in.

 

SINKING the BRIDGE

 

this is all about

 

i) bridging

 

ii) closing

 

iii) use of turn

 

iv) use of step

 

basically, the second form answers questions that the first form doesn't deal with.

 

for a start, this form uses both hands at the same time,

 

as well as using stepping and turning in conjunction with technique.

 

(i should point out that during the course of the rest of the training, stepping, turning etc etc would already have been shown.

 

the drills+sparring wouldn't work otherwise)

 

because it features the step, kicks are also shown in the form.

 

not much else to say cos it basically dissected as you do with the first

 

and the individual parts used as neccessary.

 

once again, now that turning and stepping is introduced, even more questions arise.

 

enter the third form

 

DARTING FINGERS.

 

this deals with what to do when things go wrong.

 

basically, if you step, you may sometimes overstep or your opponent closes.

 

the same is if you turn;

 

you might turn too much or your oponent might 'pull' your turn.

 

this form features two extra 'concepts'/movements

 

this form features the elbow techniques.

 

also, the 'flaws' in the first two forms are covered here

 

(e.g correct gan sau)

 

this form shows the ways you can recover your position should anything like that happens.

 

also, the basic 'rules' as shown in the first two forms are now 'broken',

 

as it assumes you are now familiar with what they are and why they are.

 

this breaking of 'rules' plays a part in tactical-play as well as freeing you even further, allowing you to be more open in your techniques.

 

again, the movements in this form are to be take apart and used as necessary.

 

to explain this better i shall have to go into the principles and ideals of wing chun.

 

but before i go into that a few extra bits of info should be given.

 

the forms are generally unimportant.

 

there is in fact a form of wing chun that is a collection of loose techniques.

 

as i said before,

 

the purpose of the forms is to give you a reference of techniques/movements

 

as well as give an idication of what stage you are in your training.

 

in this way, you are actually shown all of the movements that feature in the form before you are actually shown the form.

 

i.e before you are shown the second form, you should already be able to turn and step

 

and before you are shown the third form, you should already know when to use your elbow.

 

the emphasis in training is crossing hands.

 

drills, chi sau and sparring is the main focus in class.

 

forms are left for you to do at home.

 

the basic punch is never neglected and will be the most practiced thing no matter what level you are at.

 

what is encouraged is for you to find your own answers.

 

after all, the movements are all there in the first form.

 

it is up to you to find it.

 

if you really can't see a way out, someone be it another student or the sifu should be able to help.

 

think of the training hall to be a giant test bed where lots of people get together to see if things (techniques) work.

 

i promised a part 2

 

so here it is

 

(the following post that is...)

 

if you see anything or hae any questions.

 

feel free to post here.

[Drunken Monkey]

so here is the following thing that i've been trying to write.

 

there are lots of holes and i have no idea how to present things and i have no idea in what order things should be emntioned.....

 

PRINCIPLES AND IDEALS part2

 

to further understand how we use the movements as shown in the forms,

 

you have to understand how we do things and the reasons behind them.

 

the most famous is

 

receive what comes,

 

follow what goes.

 

you must remember that these principles/idioms are not fixed and are not only talking about one thing.

 

in this case, receive what comes means that you should let the opponent do what ever he wants.

 

more specifically, let him commit to an action.

 

(part of the wing chun way is to never be over commited)

 

also, it means that you shouldn't be afraid of the punch.

 

finally, it is telling you to not meet force with force

 

(or in chinese, do not 'bash' forces)

 

when it comes, welcome it and use it to lead him to where you want to.

 

when it goes, do not let him have it back, keep control of it.

 

this is also part of the 'borrowing energy' concept.

 

an over simplified description of what this 'means' is

 

when he pushes, you pull

 

when he pulls, you push.

 

in effect,

 

if he pushes, he falls forward

 

if he pulls, he falls backwards.

 

this is part of how we try to disrupt balance and disrupt movements.

 

lose contact- straight in

 

this one, on the basic level is telling you to not seek the arms.

 

contact/stick of the arms occurs when you need it.

 

but when you don't have contact, don't try to find the arms, go straight in and try to hit instead.

 

it is pointing to the fact that if you have lost contact cos opponent is trying to hit,

 

you should hit before they do.

 

it is at the same time, telling you that when you have dealt with the arms and they are no longer a threat, lose the stick so that you can hit.

 

you have no idea how many guys get hung up on sticking and forget the point is to get yourself in a favourable position to hit....

 

 

 

there are three little ‘rules’ that you should try to observe when facing an opponent.

 

First: point to the centre

 

this is telling you to always face your opponents' centre

 

the flipside should also be observed

 

i.e your opponent should not be facing yours....

 

it also points to your control of the centre.

 

second: forward pressure

 

this is telling you to never yield.

 

basically, everything you do should be going forwards.

 

the only times you yield are when you are forced to in which case,

 

you will want to re-apply forward pressure once you have made your space.

 

refering to footwork, there is one line of thought that goes to say that there is NO BACK STEP.

 

to this end, you aim to either step to the side, or pivot BUT the aim is to make space for you go forwards.

 

this is also a reminder about 'strength' in techniques.

 

i.e elbow position that doesn't collapse

 

third: move with technique

 

this one is a bit tricky.

 

the basic meaning is that you use both feet and hands at the same time.

 

stepping is considered a technique and this line tells you that you don't do things in isolation.

 

if you step, it should be with hand technique

 

i.e you don't just move your hands

 

or

 

you don't just move your feet

 

these three points work together.

 

i) pointing to the centre with forward pressure is useless without technique.

 

ii) pointing to the centre with good technique is useless without forward pressure

 

iii) forward pressure with good technique is useless without pointing to the centre.

 

(badly explained, i know....)

 

part3 when i have the time.

[ncole_91]

Thank you for the info

[ShadowGoomba]

I have found wing chun to be a very uniqe MA. I especially like how the kata are actually put into use, and I admit being wrong in the past when I thought that kata were useless. It nevertheless takes getting used to, after two months I am still having trouble getting down many of the moves from the first form! But like all things in life, it takes alot of practice.

[Drunken Monkey]

i've got part3 on the way but before i carry on posting,

 

i've been alerted that i should point out that this account of things is not from any ONE school.

 

instead it is a collection of the things i have gathered from two 'official' schools, four sifus and

 

*insert your prefered deity/object of worship here* knows how many websites and books and people i have talked to.

 

and um, i dont have much say over what you do or do not post here but i have little request:

 

i'm not one for accepting praises so please, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.

 

no, 'that's great', 'nice post' or heaven forbid.... 'good point'......

 

if you've liked what i wrote, then good.

 

if you didn't then that's fine also.

 

you don't need to tell me, especially if it's the latter.

 

 

well, actually, if you didn't like what i posted then perhaps you SHOULD post and tell me what's 'wrong' so to speak.

 

eck, you're an intelligent bunch, i'm pretty sure you know what i mean by this.

 

but please, real comments and questions only please.

 

big headed of me i know asking sooooo much of you,

 

i mean, asking you to NOT do something as opposed to asking you to DO something.....

 

 

laters.

[Drunken Monkey]

"I especially like how the kata are actually put into use, and I admit being wrong in the past when I thought that kata were useless"

 

little question, was this opinion made before or after learning a form properly or was it just wing chun that changed your mind?

 

i ask cos i have very little exposure to martial arts outside of the chinese styles and so i don't really have a clue as to how karate or tkd teaches/uses forms.

 

the only bit of tkd i ever got through was four directional punch/block and some of the sparring' drills.

 

not sure of it was my previous way of training but i found myself 'disecting' the tkd forms as i would a chinese form.

 

i.e i could see how to use the movements in the forms.

 

(obeying the way of moving was a different matter though...)

 

"after two months I am still having trouble getting down many of the moves from the first form"

 

what do you mean?

 

still learning how to do movements?

 

the order of the movements in the form?

 

how to use the movements?

 

still learning the form after two months?

 

i've been to one place that teaches the form as an afterthought.

 

first they show you the loose movements and their types of use then they show the form as a way of practicing the movements.

 

i.e you always learn what to do before learning the ways to practice it.

 

if you're talking about not getting movements right then i say, relax when doing it.

 

the problem with some of the moves in wing chun are reactionary,

 

that is they occur when you feel a force applied.

 

best example is the bong sau.

 

this is just a tan sau collapsing.

 

doing it in the air misses out part of the 'feel'.

 

when learning the movements and the sequences, try to remain relaxed at first and concerntrate on the order.

 

at this point it doesn't matter that the movements are tidy as you do them outside of the form, in a working manner, anyway.

 

then when you've got the order right,

 

that's when you start to tidy up the movements,

 

fix angles, timing etc etc.

 

then finally, when you've got the order and the movements tidy, then you start to apply some gentle forward pressure (in chinese 'um lik').

 

keep doing the form.

 

there are three

 

(probably more but i like odd numbers but can't think of 5.....)

 

ways of doing the form.

 

i) gentle, trying to get perfect angles/technique etc.

 

ii) gentle+loose. using as little muscle as possible (i.e elbow/wrist work)

 

iii) power. as above but 'united' and adding 'muscle'.

 

also, there's nothing from stopping you from doing the variations of the movements in the form.

 

eg. the first pak sau/palm in the 3rd section could be done with three different ways of moving elbow/wrist/forearm so why not do all three?

 

as the bogbeast (kinda) said,

 

'i've got 5 minutes and 4 feet of space, why not...?

 

****EDIT****

 

something else just came to mind.

 

i have long observed some major similarites as well as the obvious differences in some of the later kung fu styles such as mantis, tai chi, some elements of hung gar and the odd move from here and there.

 

how about any of the other chinese style guys add a few things here and there about similar or vastly different methods?

[MenteReligieuse]

First: point to the centre

 

this is telling you to always face your opponents' centre

 

the flipside should also be observed

 

i.e your opponent should not be facing yours....

 

it also points to your control of the centre.

 

I have a hard time grasping how you can make urself face his center without making him face yours. Could you add to this quote?

[Drunken Monkey]

facing his centre means facing his centreline.

 

think of it as a right angle triangle.

 

he is at the point facing the right angle,

 

you aim to be facing him along the hypoteneuse.

      him
      /I\
    /  I  \
  /    I    \
you    or     you

of course these are limited by what can be shown here.

 

the angles used and when you turn to the angle varies with the situation and what you do.

 

eg. you can walk straight into him and only take the sidestep/shift to make him off your centre at the last moment before engaging.

 

there's actually quite a lot that goes along with this all regarding controlling/defending/taking the centre (as in the space) and timing issues but these are best explained 'hands on' as it involves actual technique.

 

this is just about general things that you try to do in wing chun.

[Nick_UKWC]

First: point to the centre

 

this is telling you to always face your opponents' centre

 

the flipside should also be observed

 

i.e your opponent should not be facing yours....

 

it also points to your control of the centre.

 

I have a hard time grasping how you can make urself face his center without making him face yours. Could you add to this quote?

 

It might help to think of it like this. The centre line is not a line down the front of the body, think of it more like a pole down the middle of you. You can face/attack their centre line from any angle.

[Drunken Monkey]

um, that's what call the motherline.

 

that and the centreline draws your central plane.

 

i think that's somewhere in the earlier posts.

 

or was it in one of the kempo threads?