Running enemy and headbutt question

[Sora_Ookami]

Hey! I actually know an answer to this one! ^__^

 

It seems that everyone of my sparring partners think that they can beat me if they charge or rush at me. They're wrong!

 

One of the first rules of the Martial Art I take is to always get away, then counter. That rule must be broken if someone tries to rush you. Instead of trying to run away, you should use their force and their power against them.

 

I always rely on two techniques. The first one (i don't recomend this one unless you are very sure of yourself) is a double block. You slide your back foot back and, with both of your arms, preform a kind of punching motion in the same direction. If you're in a right stance, your right arm should be extended about level with your head and your left arm should be extended about level with your hip. MAKE SURE YOUR ARMS ARE EXTENDED OR IT WON'T WORK!!

 

An easier technique (and the one I use most often) is just a simple front kick. As the openent charges at you, prepare yourself for a kick. The thing about this technique is that the kick doesn't even have to be hard or powerful. The attacker will simply run into it. From my experience, 2 out of 6 times the attacker will fall over backwards, and if he doesn't his balance is very bad for a moment or two. If it's in point sparring, you just won your self a free point. This kicking technique is also a plus because it doesn't involve any stamina and not very much power.

 

^____^ Hope I was helpful.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Sora_Ookami, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Forgive me if I sound really harsh (I don't think I am, but some might), but I'm in a particulary frank mood tonight.

 

I'm not going to touch your argument in general (to be honest, because I'm lazy and don't care), but just because I found the double punch method you describe to be horribly structured from a biomechanical standpoint. Let me explain why...

 

First, I will tell you how I interpret what you said, so you know where I am coming from. From your post:

You slide your back foot back and, with both of your arms, preform a kind of punching motion in the same direction. If you're in a right stance, your right arm should be extended about level with your head and your left arm should be extended about level with your hip. MAKE SURE YOUR ARMS ARE EXTENDED OR IT WON'T WORK!!"

 

Your post implies that you would not step out of the way or the side, since you are using your opponent's power against them. That is all fine and good, but your structure must be sound, otherwise your opponent will bowl you over. And yes, I assuming that the opponent is coming at you at full bore, since that is sort of what the original thread's topic was.

 

At any rate, to me, this sounds like your right foot is in front. I base this assumption on the fact that most people use the term "right stance" to indicate the right foot is forward. This makes your right hand high above head level and your left hand high above head level. Now, if someone is coming straight at you, you will want to hit him with both hands at the same time (otherwise why have both of them out at the same time). This is reinforced by the notion that he is heading straight at you, so the plane of his body is parallel to your front.

 

However, in order to do it in the method that you described (one at head level, one at hip level), you must put your body in a position that is biomechanically unsound. Your rear, left hand must extend itself to reach parity with the right hand in terms of hitting the target at the same time. To do this, the left shoulder must drop and the right shoulder must rise as your hips turn to move your body. This is in direct conflict with the inclination of your body because your right foot is forward. If, on the other hand, you simply extend out your left hand rather than move your hips, you have to extend it out in a manner that puts merely displaces that stress more towards your collarbone and makes the punch very structurally weak in terms of biomechanics. Don't take my word for it, listen to what your shoulders tell you. Shortening the extension of the arm to the point where it doesn't cause stress on your shoulders in this position will make both hands extremely close to your body, which sort of defeats the purpose of the entire thrust, so to speak, of your suggestion.

 

I also wouldn't advise stepping back, either. If anything, I would step forward. The math isn't exact, but it doesn't need to be. In effect, you would be increasing the amount of force to bear on the opponent by the amount that you step forward. Stepping back dissipates the force you can bring and it also causes conflicting motion within your body for the purposes of what you propose this action to do.

 

If you insist on the merits of this technique, simply switch hands. Put the left hand high and the right hand low if your right foot is in front. This has several benefits. With only a very slight, and I do mean slight, lean forward, your body's energy is going entirely forwards. Furthermore, the stress in the shoulders is gone (meaning you can extend the arms out and not worry) and the right arm has the entire structure caused by the right foot forward to be backing it. The left arm looks only superficially to have nothing behind it. However, with the slight bend forward, it is still going "high", but due to the setup of your body, has a reinforced dropping of your body. Note that the hips should be at around 45 degrees facing to the left, not straight ahead. In the way you proposed, whether the hips were at any angle to the center (whether it was 0, 90 or anything in between), the structure itself was not sound. How can you test for structure? Have someone push and lean their entire body weight against your extended hands. If you can't support it without any sort of stress on your joints (be honest), you're not doing it right. This goes for anything like punching or blocking (and a good way to see if your kata is being done correctly).

 

Of course, I wouldn't necessarily do the double punch in this situation, I'd probably just change my body angle and hit him from that said angle. But the technique behind a double punch as you describe it should be correct, regardless of the situation you choose to use it in.

 

Different styles have different ways of doing things. Honestly, I don't care. I'm just telling you what the body tells me is sound structure (yes, we all have different body structures, but there are certain things that ring true for all body types) and from what I have learned and observed from others. You may be able to get away with poor structure, it may even work for you (and have worked in the past), but that is simply compromising poor structure with muscle and/or youthful exuberance. I think it is the path of martial arts to not to necessarily ignore the benefits of muscle or exuberance, but also to use the body's structure in as sound a manner as possible to reduce any undue strain on the body. This means letting the structure do as much work as possible with the muscle and exuberance as added benefits.

 

Hope I was helpful (and that is sincerity, not sarcasm).

Edited March 3, 2005 by Shorin Ryuu

[delta1]

Steping forward or back- only recomended if you can't move to the side. Steping forward will actually lock your hips into an anatomically more stable configuration, so is preferable. But, if he's on you already, step back. The double punch is to stop him and keep him off you. Any hurt it puts on him is gravy, but you don't want him hurtin' you!

 

Double punch- as I said, the main purpose is to stop him. Your stance should be a rock solid stance (in AK a forward bow) and your hips should be squared to the opponent (a forward bow isn't a forward bow until the hips are square). The arms should not extend out too far- definately not locked out. You need some shock absorption to deal wit that momentum. The target is his ribs, just under the nipple line. Several reasons for this. First, if you hit him too low, you'll bend him forward and with all that momentum he'll spear you with an ugly headbutt! Hit him too high, you give him leverage to push you over backwards and he still has enough momentum to roll over you.

 

High/low double punch- I don't really care for it as he'll be able to pivot off it and attack again. But if you opt for this one, I'd agree with Shorin Ryuu that you definately want the fist that corresponds to the trailing foot high. The other way, and he'll put a lot of torsional force on you, probably turning you, and he's still moving into you.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Just as an addendum, in the double punch that I described, the lower punch should be about floating rib height while the higher punch should be somewhere between shoulder and chest height, and both punches should be on the opposite side of the body (i.e., your right hitting his left, your left hitting his right). Exact heights of these punches vary depending on what exactly you are trying to do.

 

Part of this is in response to some points that delta1 mentioned about torsional force and/or him pivoting, and I neglected to address those issues earlier. Hitting on opposing sides of the body will stop that sort of pivoting action.

 

Another part is that...well, I'll let those with more advanced understandings figure the other part out if they haven't already. If you get it, fine. If not, keep thinking (or worry about it later or not at all).

[Rich67]

http://www.andylim.com/aikido/a-shomeniriminage.html

 

Perhaps some Aikido students can input here... I know that the "CLOTHESLINE", a spin on the Aikido technique irimi nage(?) might be a viable technique here... I think that this type of scenario would be handled quite effectively by a practicioner of "redirection" techniques..

[ninjanurse]

 

when you do headbutts,you NEVER use your forehead,it could do a lot of damage to you and also probably get you bruised or cut.Remember you have to headbutt with the top center of your head.Drive it into the nose and watch a red niagra falls.

 

Personally, I don't recommend head-butting with the top center of your head. There are effective ways of using your head to inflict damage on your opponent that don't include cracking your skull open and getting a concussion! In addition leading with your head (such as in an attempt to head-butt a charging maniac) is never a good idea in a fight.

 

[scottnshelly]

Well, i'm not even going to try to post anything near the intelligence of some of the other posters on here - Shorin Ryuu, delta1 and others - but, something sticks out in my mind if someone is running toward me. Correct me if i'm mistaken, but the main objective in fighting (or one of them) is to get behind the opponent. Sidestep, or get out of the way, then get behind him. It may not be as easy as that, but that's what i would attempt to do.

 

The sidekick or thrust kick might work if the opponent was lunging in, but in the original post, i believe it said assuming the opponent was running, from a distance, building speed and momemtum. your base leg wouldn't be able to handle the force. if you just wanted to kick, i think a more appropriate kick would be a round house to the gut after stepping to the side.

 

diclaimer: i am in no way condoning this as a counter to a rush. anyone that attempts this assumes all liability. i am not to blame for any injuries that result in using this counter.

[soul fighter]

If someone's running straight at you, let them come in and kick them in the face

 

If you can't deal with an unskilled goon running straight into you, how will you fight a skilled opponent?

[Shorin Ryuu]

Yikes. I wouldn't recommend kicking someone in the face who is charging towards you. Kicking his waist or lower isn't necessarily a bad thing though.

 

As mentioned before by others, getting out of the way is your best bet. I only went on about that double punch because I wanted to discuss some structural details I felt were a bit off.

[soul fighter]

Yikes. I wouldn't recommend kicking someone in the face who is charging towards you. Kicking his waist or lower isn't necessarily a bad thing though.

 

I'm not talking about a roundhouse kick

 

I'm talking about a front kick to the face