Anyone ever get this feeling...

[Shapeless]

Oh not at all. No offense taken. BUT, in MOST traditonal Karate or Kung Fu or TKD schools, I have visited, I have found that they use just what they are taught. Now in a street situation, if you try to use what you are "taught"... how can you be 100 % sure it is going to wrok, as opposed to just REACTING to what is happening? I karate school and all that, they teach you "Okay someone come at you with punch like this, wham bam, you do this" Well, in the streets, is someone going to come at you like what you were shopwn in your dojo? Highly doubtful. No one is going to come at you with a hook starting from way back across from you. They are more than likely going to be close to you and come with quick jabs. I have not seen any Karate schools that show you defenses against those types of things. And MOST (not all I'm sure) classical Karate and Kung Fu schools dont let you do any "freestyle" sparring, where you can train realistic scenarios. They have you train against one another using what you have been taught. And that my friend... is not getting you anywhere. Yoru not expressing yourself, you are expressing THAT art when you train in that way. No offense to you neither my friend, just stating my opinion. I just cant chain myslef to any style. Remeber... broken rhythm.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I think the big hold-up over "unrealistic" karate technique in certain drills or kata is based upon three things (there's more, I'm sure, but these are just the ones that come to mind).

 

First, most people assume that all drills and such use this "ridiculous hook punch that a blind person could see coming" and the like. However, that simply is not the case. Perhaps at the beginning level, attacks are "dumbed down" a bit and later progress upwards as the student advances in understanding and ability to react. I have the same sort of disappointment in places that only do those watered-down attacks. Once again, in all the true traditional schools I have trained in, that is never the case.

 

The second reason for criticism is that there is an unhealthy obsession on technique. Did you learn this technique? Did you learn that technique? What about technique from style A, B, or C? I have techniques from 50 different styles!... Does that make one superior? Most certainly not.

 

What is most important when doing drills and doing kata isn't the actual technique itself. What is important is the principle and concept behind it. Because as you say, you can't be 100% sure one technique is always going to work. But, you don't have to be. All the drills, all the kata, they have just been used to train certain motions and concepts. Knowing the technique is fine, but knowing the concept behind it is better.

 

Now for many, this sounds like JKD and certainly not like traditional karate at all. However, what I'm trying to say is that the focus on concepts and principles rather than technique is far from new, and that is how masters traditionally trained backed then (and still do). If anything, I have found that it is more typical of modern schools to be guilty of obsession over techniques rather than concepts.

 

The third reason is related to the second, and that is the traditional manner of teaching in many traditional Okinawan schools of old (and I'm sure it is similar to Chinese schools, but someone more familiar with them can say something). In those days, yes, the teacher did tell you to do things certain ways, and there were probably a lot less questions asked. Simply put, they didn't want to tell you as much until they were sure you could be trusted. That is simply more of an Asian, Confucian sort of thing (not to mention practicality, as in those days, martial arts were used solely for combat). Despite this, there wasn't a whole lot of difference between was told to every student and what was told to "trusted" students (more on this later).

 

This isn't to say that teachers expected their students to blindly do what they always were told without thinking. On the contrary, the burden fell upon the student to figure things out for themselves. Masters would tell their students things, and if they didn't get it, then that was just tough. If they were simply content to just do as they were told, maybe they would figure things out, maybe they wouldn't. But it was only those with inquisitive natures, perception, and dedication that learned not only the techniques in and of themselves, but also the concepts behind them. It was those people that became the best fighters. That is why there really are no "secrets" to karate. It is all there. The masters now were shown basically the same things that every other student was shown back then, but they took it upon themselves to learn rather than to imitate.

 

(This all brings up another issue, the fact that in my opinion, martial arts was never really meant to be taught en masse, simply because of the watering down of personal attention to each student, but that's something else altogether that I won't dive into.)

 

Even now, I had a conversation with the head of my style for North America. He told me that out of all the things he knows, all the techniques, all the concepts, only 10% of it was told to him directly (and believe me, he knows quite a bit). The other 90% was figuring things out for himself through training, study, and yes, individual thought.

 

So, if you are simply told everything, you never progress as a martial artist. You merely become a mirror of technique that people (JKD especially) find disdainful. However, I would argue that traditional training methods forced people to think about things themselves (yes, in their own "style" or "way") and express themselves, thus learning martial arts as opposed to copying them.

 

Just my thoughts as well.

[Shapeless]

Yes but the thing I live by..... "The best technique is to have no technique"

[Shorin Ryuu]

So, on the big level here, what's the difference between what I am saying and you are saying?

Edited November 20, 2004 by Shorin Ryuu

[dippedappe]

in MOST traditonal Karate or Kung Fu or TKD schools, I have visited, I have found that they use just what they are taught.

Ofcause we use what we are taught. What is it you are being taught in martial arts??? Its how to kick, how to punch and how to parry. basically, to use your whole body as a weapon. Thats the whole idea with martial arts. You learn to do this to.

classical Karate and Kung Fu schools dont let you do any "freestyle" sparring, where you can train realistic scenarios.

Wrong. In my school we do sparring. And another thing...Sparring isnt "realistic scenarios". If its an organized fight, yes, then your right, but. Real selfdeffence situation in the streets, are NOT like sparring. Maybe if your opponent is a martial artist to, then maybe it will be like sparring, but what are the odds on that?.

They have you train against one another using what you have been taught. And that my friend... is not getting you anywhere.

Here is where the idea of martial arts comes back. You learn to kick, punch and parry, and thats exactly what you do

Yoru not expressing yourself, you are expressing THAT art when you train in that way.

Do not make the mistake of thinking we use the series of movements we do when training a form(katas) in a real fight. Again, we learn forms so we can do the movements, and how they are used. When I fight Im not bound by my style. I just react, thats it. Its not like I for instance - Im standing in this position, so then I can do this kick, or this parry and then go to this punch - , No. I just react with what comes into my mind at that moment, if its from a style or not I just do it as a reflex. So I AM expressing myself. So you can maybe call me a JKD man then, or you can not, for all I care, but what I train is not Jeet Kune Do.

 

I hope you dont take offense by this but. It seems to me that you think the best thing to do is JKD. I think you should begin to train a style so you both practice JKD and a MA style. Just to get a larger view at things, so you dont think JKD is the only realistic approach to fighting. Remember what Bruce Lee also said, I quote "So styles tend to not only separate man, with their own doctions and that doction becomes the Gospel Truth, that you cannot change". Thats exactly what JKD has become to you...The gospel truth...Get a bigger perspective on martial arts is all I can say.

[gojuchad]

sometimes but i will be the first to admit not often.

[dippedappe]

sometimes but i will be the first to admit not often.

 

???come again???

[gojuchad]

yeah im not going to lie i train very hard often several hours a day but only once in a blue moon do i really feel the kata flowing threw me, its like im not doing the kata my body is doing it im not thinking at all, thinking is bad.

[dippedappe]

I guess its like in music. Sometimes you just get in somekind of zone where your body is selfsustaining or something.

 

If someone here finds out how to do this willingly...please tell me.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Obviously, dippedappe and I are in agreement here. I am anxious to hear what the response will be...

 

On another note,

 

gojuchad wrote:

yeah im not going to lie i train very hard often several hours a day but only once in a blue moon do i really feel the kata flowing threw me, its like im not doing the kata my body is doing it im not thinking at all, thinking is bad.

 

Now, this following post is a full thought, so it should be read all the way before being dissected.

 

I think there is often too much of a zen emphasis on doing the kata. Indeed, it is all too tempting to just empty the mind and "go through the motions." There are many levels you must consider when doing the kata, to include but not limited to, bunkai, energy, breathing, biomechanics, meditation, etc. It has become a buzz phrase to say "let go of the mind" and "your mind must become empty", "Do not think, feel" and so on and so forth. I'm not accusing anyone here in particular of doing this, but I think it is all too common that people say these things without really understanding what it means. To them, it is just a pleasant phrase that sounds philosophical, or something. But if anything, I find it incredibly easy to "let the kata do itself" and to get into this unthinking flow. I find it more difficult to analyze what it is I'm doing, the structural strengths and weaknesses of certain positions, and the constant envisioning of an opponent: all at a very high speed.

 

What I do not believe the main purpose of the kata is spiritual development or satori. Is spiritual development important? Yes. Is meditation or at least the ability to bring calm to yourself important? Yes. I'm not denying this, nor am I denying the fact that many karate masters of old stressed these things. But, you can relax with a six pack of beer, a few calm breaths, or flat out meditation. I don't need my kata to do that, and in the old days (think pre-1900s), they didn't use kata to achieve them either.

 

When doing the kata, I think it is important to think about what it is you are doing.

 

Pay attention to how your body feels. Is your shoulder telling you a movement is too far? Does your knee say that perhaps there is something wrong with your stance? Does one position seem more structurally sound than another position that is the difference of three inches?

 

Try to understand the concepts that this kata is trying to show you. Obviously, if you do this, you may not look quite as smooth as before, you may even make mistakes. The more you practice, and the more you get a deeper feel for the kata, the less "brain space" it will take to do this. But, if you never take the extra step, if you always try to make your kata only a tool for medititation, then I don't think you gain as much from the kata as you can. If you simply go through the motions, then you will become guilty of what Shapeless accuses many karateka or Chinese martial artists of doing.

 

This brings up an important distinction. I believe there is an incredible difference between an empty mind and a clear mind. What I think is desired in studying and doing kata is a clear mind. Now before people jump all over this, let me explain. Yes, I have read Musashi's Book of Five Rings. Yes, I have read many of Bruce Lee's books. Yes, I have read many books on the influence of zen and the martial arts and zen and the influence on Japanese culture. Yes, one of the majors in my undergrad was Foreign Area Studies (East Asia). So I understand the arguments behind zen and the culture behind it all.

 

If you look at a lot of comments the Japanese had about Okinawan martial arts in the early decades of the 1900s, they felt that it was an incomplete art. This means that it heavily emphasized fighting and didn't really try to incorporate spirituality into it. The archaic training methods didn't make it readily teachable to more than a small number of people. Consequently, the Japanese influence on Okinawan karate was large. Okinawan karate had to adapt in order for it to be accepted by the mainstream Japanese population. All of these changes are best left to another post, but one of these changes, I feel, was an overemphasis of spirituality and self-development at the expense of some practicality. At any rate, despite how often I myself use the word "traditional", it does make you realize that many things that the word "traditional" implies, aren't traditional at all when it comes to Okinawan karate.

 

With a clear mind, you not only feel what is going on, but you actively record your experience so that it can be later compared, analyzed, whatever. There is another difference here. The difference between an analyzing, clear mind and an analyzing, cluttered mind. In other words, you can over-think things. What is the difference? You tell me. For everyone, it will be different. Some people think faster than others, or can handle more information flow than others. But the fact is, if you don't think, it is much more difficult to learn not only what you are doing, but why you are doing it.

 

All of this was on how the mind should be while doing kata. There are some similarities as well as differences on how the mind should be when in an actual fighting situation. But, that is a discussion for another time, and I doubt there are that many people who read this whole boring post anyway.

 

As usual, I am in danger of rambling the more I type (some people would say I start rambling the instant I go beyond a few sentences), so I'll stop now.