Classic Katas...okinawan and japanese.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Shorin ryu, I can't wait till you watch the katas and explain them here, I have heard that our katas are very close to ones chibana used to do, is there any way you can put them on a web site?

 

Well, I don't own the videos, so that would be kind of difficult. My instructor has them, and he promised his instructor (whose still alive) not to release them. His instructor (Clarence Lee, former 8th dan under Shuguro Nakazato...wasn't kicked out of the system or anything, he just sort of drifted away) doesn't mind letting a few people see them, but doesn't want it to be all out there.

 

All the same, I'm going to try and see them Thursday, as I've no school (thanks to Veteran's Day...bless all those who have served and who are serving now). I have to coordinate it because he does live 2 hours away from me...

 

I'll tell you my impressions though (I will bring my notebook, at least, and jot some stuff down).

 

Here's some info on Clarence Lee, if you're interested in how he got the tapes:

 

http://www.martialartmasters.org/Official%20Website%20(Hall%20of%20Fame)_files/page0008.htm

[P.A.L]

shorin ryu, thanks for the link, he is a real master.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Saw the videos of Chibana Chosin today. Just like I heard, the kata is extremely close to the way we do it in Shorinkan today. These videos were taken the year before Chibana died, but he is still pretty active.

 

As a side note, for all you Kenpo people, I saw some video of Oyata (I think it was around 20 years old? I'm not sure) doing a whole bunch of bunkai for various kata. That was pretty impressive and painful looking.

[P.A.L]

shorin ryuu, in pinna yondan two kicks after stacking(befor elbow strike) are front kicks or side kicks.

 

also oppening of kusanku dai , after two block like passai we turn back for a kick, is that kick a side kick or front snap kick.

[Shorin Ryuu]

He didn't do the Pinans in this footage (unless my brain is just dying right now), but he did the naihanchi and the other advanced kata. He didn't do Gojushiho (I think Chibana knew a version, but he never taught it).

 

But, back to the question. In Kusanku Dai, he did do it more like a front kick than a side kick, if I recall correctly. Nowadays, we do a side kick, but it looked closer to a front kick on the tape. One of these days, I'm just going to have to sit down and watch them over and over, if my instructor doesn't mind (he actually suggested it). But today was just sort of letting me see them.

 

As far as all the kicks in Pinan yondan, I've always done them as front kicks...I don't remember seeing anything different from that...

[P.A.L]

I've watched sensei Nakazato doing kusanku dai on

 

https://www.wonder-okinawa.jp he turns back and throws a back fist and a side kick together. but my sensei throwa a front kick,

 

as you may know the majority of shuri-te based styles use a side kick in pinan yondan(I know Matsobayashi ryu also does front kick) and begining of pinna shodan (heian nidan), I've heard sensei chibana altered the side kick to front kick.

 

I really like to know the way Itosu designed this kata.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I'm actually unsure, but I thought it was the other way around, that it was originally a front kick, but was later changed to a side kick. Kusanku Dai is Nakazato Sensei's favorite kata, by the way.

 

Edit: You keep mentioning a side kick in Pinan yondan. I'm just curious, but as I said before, I never (in Shorinkan, which we both do) have seen any side kicks in pinan yondan. There are the two kicks before the elbow strike to either side (front kicks), the kick down the center before the backfist (front kicks) and the kicks before the two punches on either side (front kicks), and then the knee kick, but I honestly know of any place where there is a side kick...

[P.A.L]

that's right we don't do side kick but ,for examole shotokan , after augmented block they stack two fist , then chamber hands and left leg ready for side kick, then back fist same time as side kick to knee, then go to 90 degree stance ,grab the neck and elbow strike as they turn to zenkutso dachi,

 

(we use cat stance here). I think shuto ryu do the same. funakoshi and mabuni were itosu's students ,so it is possible that the original kata was two side kicks before elbow strikes.but I can't find out.

 

I practice shindo jinen ryu as well , in this style also we do side kick but again the founder of shindo jinen was a friend of funakoshi and mabuni.

 

I need to find out how shobayashi ryu does it(seibukan).

[Shorin Ryuu]

I've read in a few places that Funakoshi added side kicks to a lot of the kata, so that is what you may be seeing. But in terms of the pinan kata, I don't think there are any side kicks that Chibana added/changed.

 

From what I remember of my Matsumura Shorin Ryu training, we didn't do side kicks in the pinan kata either.

 

But, despite my insistence on keeping kata true to tradition, we really have to realize how kata was done and taught back in the old days. They didn't care if everyone looked the same or not. The level of precision and exactness that is demanded by teaching mass numbers of karateka around the world is a rather artificial construct that we have added to the kata.

 

Body mechanics will vary from individual to individual, so as the study of kata progresses, so must the understanding of how it should apply to your body.

 

Like I said, back then, they didn't care too much about the precise placement of certain moves, as they were more concerned with the concept behind it. The motions themselves were more important than the exact position in many cases.

 

Nowadays we ask the heads of various styles "where exactly does this go?" and we sort of put them on the spot. Sure, they pick one "official" way of doing it, but even that sometimes changes slightly from year to year. There is a marked difference between the "gold standard" of how the kata should be officially done, and then how you should do the kata to match your own unique body mechanics. That "gold standard" is useful for keeping the template for future transmission, but since we aren't all mass-produced robots, our own individual kata should vary slightly.

 

This is really just more of my rant, rather than dealing specifically with whether a side kick should be a front kick, or whatnot.

[ShotokanKid]

The only katas i recognize are bassai and jion. Then again, I haven't even had my black belt for a year yet.