Classic Katas...okinawan and japanese.

[47MartialMan]

I had read that Sanchin is actually based from a Chinese form

[Shorin Ryuu]

I've been invited to watch some videos of Chibana Chosin (founder of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu and student of Itosu), and I've been told that the way he does the kata in the videos is extremely close to the way the head of my style of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu does them. I just haven't had a chance to swing by my instructor's house yet and watch them. More on this when I actually do get the chance.

[Sho-ju]

Master Hironori Otsuka:

 

“It is obvious that these kata must be trained and practised sufficiently, but one must not be ‘stuck' in them. One must withdraw from the kata to produce forms with no limits or else it becomes useless. It is important to alter the form of the trained kata without hesitation to produce countless other forms of training. Essentially, it is a habit – created over long periods of training. Because it is a habit, it comes to life with no hesitation – by the subconscious mind.” (Wado-Ryu Karate: page 19-20).

 

I don't believe Otsuka is saying it's ok to change kata, rather, kata will be changed by personal study of that kata. I believe Kanazawa said something to the effect, 'When two people learn a kata and perform it, the kata will look the same. After 10 years of practice the kata will have slightly varied. After 20 years of practice the kata may look different.' I'm going from memory here and can't be sure of the exact words used.

 

sj

[Sho-ju]

I had read that Sanchin is actually based from a Chinese form

 

In the book 'Shotokan's Secrets' the idea is put forth that 'naha te' is nothing more then chuan fa with closed fists. Sanchin is a Chinese foam of body hardening and meditation. For more info do a google search for Uechi ryu.

[tommarker]

my opinion is it does an unjustice to the kata ...removes and leaves out important aspects of the kata. most replies stated that even the okinawan systems and shoto kan schools dont do them the way funakoshi taught them? they change them and alter them...i say BULL!!!!!i had a copy of funakoshis karate do khyon and just dont see anyone altering these katas who train in a japanese or okinawan system. so ive come here for an answere my friends. do you do your kata the way it was taught and introduced say 40 years ago unchanged? or does all systems of martial arts alter katas? just if i perform kata i want to do it correctly no matter what the koreans say!

 

The forms aren't done exactly in Shotokan as Funakoshi demonstrates them in his book. As I understand it, Funakoshi's son altered a lot of the kata by making the stances deeper, which affects maai quite a bit I imagine.

 

Look at the Shorin Ryu version of the Pinans and compare them to Heian as performed by Shotokan folks. Quite a few differences right there.

 

It doesn't bother me if forms change over the years if there is a good reason for doing so. I think over the years however, a lot of people have altered the forms to make them look "prettier" and adding applications as an afterthought.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Tommarker stated it very well. A lot of changes to kata were often made for aesthetic reasons. What they didn't realize is that kata wasn't meant to look pretty, it was meant to be deadly. Sometimes things didn't look linear or sharp or as aesthetically pleasing simply because it was more effective that way.

[Karate-addict]

I had read that Sanchin is actually based from a Chinese form

Actually all of karate's kata (no matter what style) are or were Chinese. But about Sanchin, there are sam Gung Fu styles that have Sam chien form which is similar to Sanchin. This is mentioned in the book Five Ancestor Fist Kung Fu:The way of Ngo Cho Kun written by Alexander L. Co.

[P.A.L]

Shorin ryu, I can't wait till you watch the katas and explain them here, I have heard that our katas are very close to ones chibana used to do, is there any way you can put them on a web site?

[Master Jules]

I had read that Sanchin is actually based from a Chinese form

 

MM.....Sanchin translates to 3 battles or 3 conflicts. It is also known in Chinese as Samchien, or Sambuden. It is a version of the much older iron shirt training, also known as Golden Bell. The original version of Sanchin was done with open hands, and a faster breathing pattern, to cultivate very forceful and deadly strikes. It was this version that Miyagi, the founder of Goju Ryu, learned from Kanryo Higashionna, founder of Naha-Te, and subsequently changed by closing the hands, and slowing the breathing, to cultivate the internal health aspects of the form. Higashionna, BTW, learned the form from Ru Ru Ko, a Chinese White Crane master from the Fukien province in southern China. Sanchin breathing is a form of "standing chi gung", as well as "moving zen". The muscle tensioning is a form of protection against Kyoshu Jitsu (pressure point) strikes. The locking of tandens 1,2, and 3 (lower abdomen, kidneys, and rear neck) provides protection against strikes to vital areas.

 

In regards to katas being changed.....although many will claim they are changed for "aestetic reasons", the changes usually occur because certain techniques in the kata are missinterpreted, or they are simply to hard to perform.

 

An example of this from Goju Ryu, is the kata Sanseiru (36 hands). Although the form doesnt really have any "fancy" moves, early on in the sequence, there is a very difficult double jump kick. Some of the more traditional "kans" still teach it that way, but some dont. The double jump kick has since been replaced with two front kicks, moving forwards. The Jundokan lineage, whos biggest proponent these days is Morio Higoanna, performs two front kicks, and can be seen doing so on his video tapes. Some Shoreikan schools still perform the double jump kick.

 

Either way.....as long as the practicioner realizes what "was", and what "is", and the differences between the two.

[47MartialMan]

I had read that Sanchin is actually based from a Chinese form

 

In the book 'Shotokan's Secrets' the idea is put forth that 'naha te' is nothing more then chuan fa with closed fists. Sanchin is a Chinese foam of body hardening and meditation. For more info do a google search for Uechi ryu.

 

Do you have any favorite links?