Defense against a push

[delta1]

I am curious what would be the best defense against a "push". By this I mean the jerk who for whatever reason wants to get in your face, and without actually punching you, he does the two hand push, perhaps to your upper chest.

 

The problem with giving a generic defense against any attack is that there are too many variables. Did the push make contact? How hard? Where- high. low, evenly, more to one side? How much forward momentum does your attacker have? What was the range? Did it lift? Environmental factors? Size and atrength of you opponent?

 

I'd suggest looking at what your techniques teach instead of looking for rote responses to attacks.

Well, in AK the 2nd technique we learn [Alternating Maces] is against a two-hand push, although it is focused on a lower [belly level] push, there's no reason it wouldn't work against a higher push.

 

The base technique is for a two hand push to the lower chest that makes HARD contact. I've worked it for higher and lower pushes, and it can work. But you first have to thoroughly understand the base technique, and there are a lot of adjustments that have to be made. For example, if the push hits you high on the chest, you'll be thrown a little more off ballance, and your step back to reestablish your base will likely be further back and a little more in line. This will change your relative angles to the attacker, necessetating some changes.

As the push comes in, you step back with the left foot while doing an inward block with the right hand [possibly with a bit of downward push]. This will leave him probably off balance with his hands together pointing to his right and down..

 

If done for a low push, then yes, you'd go down and in with the block. For a higher push, that block has to go softly towaed his left shoulder. Too hard, or too much across, and you'll throw his arms out into orbit (a Kenpo no-no!). Going downward 'wipes' the block, which will not turn his center line off the line of attack.

Immediately [and I mean immediately. It is almost done at the same time as the inward block] do a left vertical punch with the left hand into the attacker's chest/solar plexus. This is done to stop the attacker's foward mostion [and where a good solid forward bow comes into play for your stability].

 

Yes, this has to flow! No pauses, breaks, etc. Again, for the higher pushes, there is a difference from what you describe, though. You drop a right downward forearm onto both his forearms with gentle downward pressure, and the right hand cranes his right elbow as you turn into a right forward bow and left straight punch over your right. The crane and stance change will pull his center back on the central line of attack, just in time for the punch to land! The forward bow is a solid stance to deal with his forward momentum. STOP- and look at what you just did! I'm not going into detail here, as it would be confusing at the begginers level. (I'm an intermediate lelel student, and it still confuses me sometimes, as this is a senior level concept). But I will tell you that this is your introduction to the gasseos phase of motion! This is an important thing to have an understanding of later on, so get the base down cold now!

 

The punch can go to the solar plex or the sternum, and you need to understand why and waen to strike the different targets, and the consequences of each strike as it relates to positioning. Also, understand what will happen if the strike is off target.

You then use your left hand to check the attacker's hands, keeping them down and to the left, while rotating counter-clockwise and doing a back-knuckle strike to the attackers temple.

 

Again, it flows. This is a replacement move, which checks (but does not control) all three of his demensions. The strike rolls over simultaneously. You've basically took control of him, and delivered the coup de gras (little Savate lingo there) at about the same time he realizes it.

 

There is a lot more that this technique teaches, and there are a lot of better techniques against pushes in both Kenpo and other systems. But as you progress, you'll get away from the 'if he does this, I'll do Alternating Maces" idea. I used to train emergency responders, and at the beggining of every class I'd get "what if this, or if that, what do I do if, ...". I used to tell the "I can't give you a list for every situation you'll face. Every emergency is different. But, I can teach you to apply principles, and you can make your own list to deal with anything you find on the spot." That's Kenpo.

[doubletwist]

 

As the push comes in, you step back with the left foot while doing an inward block with the right hand [possibly with a bit of downward push]. This will leave him probably off balance with his hands together pointing to his right and down..

 

If done for a low push, then yes, you'd go down and in with the block. For a higher push, that block has to go softly towaed his left shoulder. Too hard, or too much across, and you'll throw his arms out into orbit (a Kenpo no-no!). Going downward 'wipes' the block, which will not turn his center line off the line of attack.

 

You're right. I was forgetting the height of the hypothetical push. In this case, would an inward parry be a good alternative? Get his attack off to the side without throwing his arms out?

 

Except that now that I think about it, this doesn't leave you in as good a position to check/trap the attacker's arms without bringing your left hand all the way around again. I guess it will still work, it just won't flow quite as well, or be quite as quick.

The punch can go to the solar plex or the sternum, and you need to understand why and waen to strike the different targets, and the consequences of each strike as it relates to positioning. Also, understand what will happen if the strike is off target.

 

Well if I'm not mistaken, a strike to the solar plexus [softer target] will be more likely to cause him to hunch over and close up; while a strike to the sternum [harder target] will cause him to stand and open up. Or am I completely off base here?

 

As for what would happen if you miss the target, I guess that depends on where [and if] you hit.

You then use your left hand to check the attacker's hands, keeping them down and to the left, while rotating counter-clockwise and doing a back-knuckle strike to the attackers temple.

 

Again, it flows. This is a replacement move, which checks (but does not control) all three of his demensions. The strike rolls over simultaneously. You've basically took control of him, and delivered the coup de gras (little Savate lingo there) at about the same time he realizes it.

 

Ok, you lost me there. Which means that a: that's more advanced than where I am now, AND b: it's time for me to go to bed.

There is a lot more that this technique teaches, and there are a lot of better techniques against pushes in both Kenpo and other systems. But as you progress, you'll get away from the 'if he does this, I'll do Alternating Maces" idea. I used to train emergency responders, and at the beggining of every class I'd get "what if this, or if that, what do I do if, ...". I used to tell the "I can't give you a list for every situation you'll face. Every emergency is different. But, I can teach you to apply principles, and you can make your own list to deal with anything you find on the spot." That's Kenpo.

 

Yes, I am slowly getting into that aspect. Or rather, I've KNOWN intellectually about that aspect, but I am just now beginning to get my body to understand it.

 

Although I was not the original poster on this subject, thanks for your great information. I do learn quite a bit from you and various others in these forums.

 

DT

[Karate-addict]

Tai Ji Quan's pushing hands has the answer. Like someone already said, step aside sweap his hands away with your hands ( similar to mawashi uke in karate ) and while doing that turn the wrists around and then you push him. That way you don't have to punch him.

[solitas]

... But as you progress, you'll get away from the 'if he does this, I'll do Alternating Maces" idea. ...

 

As the original poster, I appreciate the great responses. Obviously there are a variety of responses to each attack, and to me as a beginner I think this particular quote about not trying to build a "if he does this, do this" list is pretty good advice. It goes in line with the overall idea of building confidence in yourself so if/when the time comes to use your skills the response comes naturally, not robotic.

 

I've only been in karate for 10 weeks and am pretty much infatuated with it. I was dedicated but bored in the gym, dedicated but bored running up and down the street - and now, dedicated but never bored in the dojo.

 

Thanks guys

[username9]

First and foremsot if the guy is pushing you it is likely he is about to start something - but try looking at Geoff Thompsons work on the fence.

 

BUT Just to add my opinion on my fave ways to deal with a push (U can pretty much make these work for any height):

 

1) As the guy comes in to push - at the peak of his momentum, just take a slight step back and gring both arms rouns the outised of his, then up, then round and down. So the hands go round his arms and down to scopp out.

 

Shown here below from your point of view as the defender: (I made this picture - quite the artist aren't i?! )

 

http://cafe.cic.hull.ac.uk/~icb02kj/defence2.bmp

 

As you do this move you should move your head to one side because your opponent will come straight forward at you. Imagine when you lean into somthing and it suddenly isn't there- all that momentum causes you to go forwards - QUICKLY! The arms are spread outwards in this motion so if you were super quick you could just move out of his way and he would run into the wall behind you! hehe - But you'd have to teleport really

 

! And that just takes too much enegry! lol

 

From this you can do all kinds of stuff. A grappling answer is to move into him as he comes forwards and wrap your arms round his chest for a trip-kind of takedown.

 

A strikers answer may be some thing more of using the knee on the inside of him to strike the gut hard and fast and maybe finish with an elbow to the back of the head?!

 

2 - Another on is to step back slightly again and (this can be tricky) is to simply grab the fingers (beacuase pushes use open hands) and then to imagine you are lying a plane and ur trying to drop height fast - you twist your wrists up and forwards in a tight circular motion. This usually causes someone to at leats pratially drop to their knees from which a swift front kick to th face should work a treat!

 

Just use a partner in your training to play with these and all other options shown above. just don't hurt your partner too much! hehe

 

Good Luck and Have Fun!

 

p.s - I so know what you mean by dedicated but bored - all changes for me in a Dojo! Never bored but evben more dedicated!

[solitas]

Shown here below from your point of view as the defender: (I made this picture - quite the artist aren't i?! )

 

DaVinci, Rembrandt, Picasso, Jax..

 

Actually that "picture" helped a lot. I agree and I think some others may have said that the push can probably be considered an attack worthy of a retalitory strike. I was somehow thinking that a fast and efficient deflection might make the guy think twice before continuing his agression. But I guess if it didn't, it's time to go to town (or run).

[username9]

DaVinci, Rembrandt, Picasso, Jax..

 

Why am I last?? hehe

 

Anyway - I see what you are saying - I had a similar experience of this happening but I knew the guy - he pushed me and I decided to....in a pure martial arts momnet of inspiration ....push him back! lol

 

But the difference is I could push a lot harder and I followed up by walking right up to him.....funnily enough he backed off! Curious!

[Ted T.]

Hi guys,

 

sometimes a push is a push and sometime it ain't.

 

- someone said that

 

It really does matter if this is a dojo problem or a social problem. If in the dojo, everyone knows what's happening,the guy is set to push, then certain responses are going to work. They are designed that way.

 

But in a social context, with some blowhard in your face, asking you who the H you think you are and waving his hands around who suddenly snaps into a slamming push, then it is different.

 

If he is close enough to hit your chest with a two hand push, and you let him move first, you will get hit. Your reaction will be slower than his slam. That is why pre-emption is so big. If you cue on the prep for his slam, you can meet it but only with something equal, no big circular movements but your own jam and slam.

 

Stand in front of a wall and put your palms on it. Bend your arms and load a bit then 'hit' the wall. You have just made a 'push', right? Now bring our palms back a foot and snap them into the wall, slamming it. That is a combat push or a hit. (I've seen dojo pushes made by standing far enough away from the partner to extend the hands and the push was made by walking into them.) Unless your defence can handle a combat push at critical speed, it is not puc (practical unarmed combat).

 

Keeping him at a distance works, as someone said, so does the tai chi guy reference - put your own wrists or palms lightly on the combat slammer's wrist then let him slam you (dynamically) and you try to defend. Big miracle hey?

 

The next thing to learn is the psychological tricks used to interfere with your defence but, later on that...

[Shorin Ryuu]

The reason why I posted my answer the way I did (not standing double-weighted and letting his push go 'through' you) was because I was starting the assumption that someone pushes you before you can stop it. Not being double-weighted is more of a "strategic tactic". It helps shape your other responses no matter what happens. If you stand there double-weighted and he pushes you, then you'll just go back. If your weight is o one side or the other and you let him push, you'll use all his force to help spin you and then you can do whatever technique you wish (X, Y or Z). Ideally, I wouldn't let him touch me, I'd just shift forward at an angle and do technique X, Y or Z. Standing with my weight to one side or the other helps me do this AND helps me manipulate his energy even if he does manage to land his push successfully. This may end up requiring a conscious effort to not be double-weighted at first, but it ends up being automatic after a while. I've actually talked to people far, far better than I, and they've told me they did the same thing (some told me without even me asking specifically about it).

[doubletwist]

Hi guys,

 

sometimes a push is a push and sometime it ain't.

 

- someone said that

 

It really does matter if this is a dojo problem or a social problem. If in the dojo, everyone knows what's happening,the guy is set to push, then certain responses are going to work. They are designed that way.

 

But in a social context, with some blowhard in your face, asking you who the H you think you are and waving his hands around who suddenly snaps into a slamming push, then it is different.

 

If he is close enough to hit your chest with a two hand push, and you let him move first, you will get hit. Your reaction will be slower than his slam. That is why pre-emption is so big. If you cue on the prep for his slam, you can meet it but only with something equal, no big circular movements but your own jam and slam.

 

The point of this isn't to stop him on the first push. A majority of 'blow-hards' that are going to push you like that in the first place, are going to do it more than once. You've seen the little punks doing the pushing...

 

Push once: Come on man...

 

Push twice: come on man...

 

PUsh third: ....

 

you get the picture.

 

The idea is that they get the first push free. At which point you need to let them know that you don't want to fight....

 

The second push you are ready for, and will be able to react accordingly.

 

If the attacker has been mouthing off to you for some time, then you should even be ready for the first push.

 

Unless you want to live your life in complete paranoia, you will never be ready for the first push if the attacker just decides to come out of nowhere and push you, but really, how often is that going to happen?

 

Obviously it would be best to not put yourself in a position where some blow-hard is going to start pushing you, but that isn't always possible.

 

 

 

DT