Taikudo-ka Posted April 2, 2002 Posted April 2, 2002 Having seen and heard a few of these things, the "grapplers" seem to just charge in, head down, for a waist grab most of the time. I can think of all sorts of nasty things this would leave the grappler open to, which I never see the "strikers" use, possibly because they are illegal. - Hammer to base of skull - Hard clap on eardrums - Double fist upwards to nose (from elbows if upper arms are grabbed) - Ripping grapplers head up by hair then palm ridge to bridge of nose - Double fist to temples - Short range knee, using hands on opponents head to force it further down. - Plus countless other eye, throat, ear and, groin, and other weak point strikes, twists, rips, etc. Need I continue... That barefoot kick that did squatt in the tournament could be a steel-capped boot or worse "on the street". Knuckles can be adorned with all sorts of nasties from key chains up. Most of these I wouldn't want to see used in even a fairly hard-core tournament. For good reason. But since everyone is talking street, street, street, I thought I'd mention some... Not to mention that a seemingly petite, nicely made up lady could, with long sharp fingernails and eagle-claw style rip your face up pretty quick if you got too close. KarateForums.com - Sempai
Shaolin Posted April 2, 2002 Posted April 2, 2002 On 2002-04-02 01:19, Taikudo-ka wrote: Having seen and heard a few of these things, the "grapplers" seem to just charge in, head down, for a waist grab most of the time. I can think of all sorts of nasty things this would leave the grappler open to, which I never see the "strikers" use, possibly because they are illegal. - Hammer to base of skull - Hard clap on eardrums - Double fist upwards to nose (from elbows if upper arms are grabbed) - Ripping grapplers head up by hair then palm ridge to bridge of nose - Double fist to temples - Short range knee, using hands on opponents head to force it further down. - Plus countless other eye, throat, ear and, groin, and other weak point strikes, twists, rips, etc. Need I continue... That barefoot kick that did squatt in the tournament could be a steel-capped boot or worse "on the street". Knuckles can be adorned with all sorts of nasties from key chains up. Most of these I wouldn't want to see used in even a fairly hard-core tournament. For good reason. But since everyone is talking street, street, street, I thought I'd mention some... Not to mention that a seemingly petite, nicely made up lady could, with long sharp fingernails and eagle-claw style rip your face up pretty quick if you got too close. Totally agree. BJJ does not seem to take into account the fact that in fights, and ones I have been in, there is often eye gouging, groin attacks and biting, among other things. I for one have no intention of rolling around on the ground with some thug in the subway, with the his teeth resting on my neck and his hands free. Most fighters today don't know how to not go down in a fight. They have weak bases and no idea what energy issuing is. This has been encouraged by the 'modern' preference to drop to the mat as soon as someone throws a strike. In the old days warriors could not afford to roll around on the groud because they would likely have been run through with some kind of blade - this can still happen today. Most fighters, however, have little or no idea how to use their hands while standing up and so they drop to the mat as soon as is possible, hopefully with the opponent. One thing that people seem to be overlooking is that in between striking and grappling range is trapping range. Trapping range and techniques offer the benefits of striking and grappling. Advanced trapping can allow a skilled fighter to control a would be grappler long enough to land strikes - stomp his leg and put some serious hurt on him. I think we will start to see more of this kind of fighting in the near future. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-04-02 03:43 ] Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace: Moy Yat Sifu
Bon Posted April 2, 2002 Posted April 2, 2002 Heh, eye gouging and all the rest is possible. But, what's stopping the other person from doing it too ? If anything, they have a superior position to do all that from! As an example, say I have mount on some guy, this guy is going to grab my groin, that leaves his face open doesn't it ? I hail down with punches as soon as his hand(s) leave his face. His natural reaction is to be to place his hands back in front of his face and block the punches. I can also quite easily grab his groin, what defence does he have ? Punch me in the face, grab me ? I have a superior position that I can do all this and more from with a lot more force and power inflicting more damage on him than what he can on me. It takes sacrifice to be the best.There are always two choices, two paths to take. One is easy. And its only reward is that it's easy.
Taikudo-ka Posted April 2, 2002 Posted April 2, 2002 Not sure exactly what you mean by "on mount" but I assume you mean on to top your opponent, with them controlled. Of course, this would be the best position in a one-on-one. Assuming you can get there... But remember, if you start punching, you're probably not holding some part of me which could start striking and blocking in turn. My point was that all this nasty stuff could be raining down on you while you're attempting that grab, take down and lock. There may be "no holds barred" tournaments, but I think rarely is there "no strikes barred", for good reason... Interestingly,some of those low karate stances everyone loves to mock nowdays can make it very difficult for someone to knock you over. But of course, nowdays everyone wants to stand high and prance around like a boxer... waiting to be knocked over. KarateForums.com - Sempai
Shaolin Posted April 3, 2002 Posted April 3, 2002 I agree if you have a superior position on one opponent and are raining punches down he probably won't be biting you etc. My problem with this is that you first have to get that superior position without getting hit, controlled, unbalanced, bitten, gouged, grabbed where it hurts etc. Once down on the ground it better be a one on one or his 'boy' will be on you with superior position in nothing flat. Taikudo-ka : I agree about the low stances. They offer many unique advantages that are often over looked in today's 'modern' era of non- classical martial arts. I saw a win in a full-contact fight where a fighter won by getting really low and shooting in with a straight right hand. The opponent was KOed before he hit the mat. The winner took up an amazing amount of distance with his low stance attack - to me this is a modern application of Shotokan entry. Perhaps one day people will come to realize what they are missing from the classical systems. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-04-03 02:15 ] Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace: Moy Yat Sifu
Bon Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 I really do think BJJ is beneficial... What everyone knows as 'the mount' is derived from the hurdler's mount. The hurdler's mount has one foot forward and one foot backward.. If the guy bucks, the guy can stand up and be right in position to hit the guy in the face. BAM! He'll go back down and you can mount him again. Are you saying you wouldn't like to be in this position if you ended up on the ground ? The theory ALL fights go to the ground, or ALL fights are won on the ground isn't correct, because it's very possible to win standing up, I don't doubt that for a second. But, if you're on the ground, you'd want to be in that position wouldn't you ? Don't tell me this stuff about the centreline, 'cause obviously other striking styles are meant to groundproof too, by this I mean, the fighter able to remain on his feet all throughout the fight. _________________ It takes sacrifice to be the best. There are always two choices, two paths to take. One is easy. And its only reward is that it's easy. [ This Message was edited by: Bon on 2002-04-07 00:34 ] It takes sacrifice to be the best.There are always two choices, two paths to take. One is easy. And its only reward is that it's easy.
Shaolin Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 On 2002-04-07 00:33, Bon wrote: Don't tell me this stuff about the centreline, 'cause obviously other striking styles are meant to groundproof too, by this I mean, the fighter able to remain on his feet all throughout the fight.Although there are still systems out there that are more or less complete, most systems are not complete anymore. Most systems have lost their essence. Most 'masters' have no idea how to use their arts in combat. Most Karate isn't Karate at all. Just because there is a sign on a building that says "Karate" doesn't mean squat. Most high Dan masters of traditional styles don't know diddly about how to use their system in combat. This is the reason IMO that the classical arts have such a bad rap these days, because what people are saying is classical is really watered down garbage devoid of it's essential and original content. The information that once existed in many martial arts has disappeared or been lost over the years and what's left is only a shadow of what once existed. In all genuine Chinese Kung-Fu there is something called energy issuing. This means that the student learns how to manipulate the opponent's balance through a kind of 'bridge/arm/leg contact and energy release, now, this is of course done by all grapplers but not many strikers, since most don't train this. Grapplers issue energy, but they do so in the form of grappling, i.e. wrapping themselves around the enemy, either the torso or a limb, in order to control his balance, take him down, etc. In some arts like Chinese Kung-Fu and specifically in Wing Chun the student learns to do what grapplers do in the way of controlling and stealing balance except with less energy expended and in a more subtle manner. This energy control or manipulation is trained in Chi-Sao, the systems main energy exercise. Bear in mind that in this kind of fighting we need only steal the balance of the enemy for a moment, just long enough to get off a couple close range power hits. The Centerline is also the center of gravity and together with the system's Centerline concepts and energy training, the student learns to control the enemy's balance while standing, controlling and hitting in trapping range - like BJJ except standing - this is the essence of Wing Chun. Many arts do not have this element of energy/balance control that some Chinese Kung-Fu and some other systems have, some used to I think, but have since lost the essence of their arts and converted to Western Boxing methods, though they still call what they do 'Karate'. I have yet to see anyone even trying to do trapping, etc in popular full contact events like the UFC, but, I think we will start to see more of this in the future and I am going to do my best to make it so. Having said that, yes, anyone can go down but those well trained in energy issuing will not go down easily. The question is what to do once you go down, stay down and do BJJ? Not me. Learn how to use BJJ to get up again? Maybe, or perhaps use the elements of my own system to escape - maybe. I have a real problem with planning to stay on the ground. On the street I would make it my priority to get up on my feet again, so regardless of what tools I was using that would be my objective. Some Wing Chun methods I think can work on the ground, I would rather do Chain Punches no matter if I was on the ground or not over those punches I see the BJJ guys doing, and I would rather hit the guy while he's standing, since it's a lot easier to snap his head back while he's on his feet. A guy on the ground has the ground supporting his head, while the puncher on the ground will be unable to put all the power of his feet, legs and hips into his strikes. I am starting to do more ground attack simulations and am exploring the possibilities in that scenario. Peace. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-04-08 06:54 ] Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace: Moy Yat Sifu
Bon Posted April 7, 2002 Posted April 7, 2002 Interesting post, I understand what you mean now! So far I've only had two fights where I've had more than one attacker and I've had a few.. I'm learning BJJ 'cause no one around here knows how to fight on the ground, plus I'm more likely to use a knee on belly so I can easily get to my feet again if someone comes along. It takes sacrifice to be the best.There are always two choices, two paths to take. One is easy. And its only reward is that it's easy.
bjjbarbie Posted April 8, 2002 Posted April 8, 2002 no offense taikudo-ka but obviously u havent had much experience against a grappler!!! i do both karate and bjj and yeah i do agree that the bjj'ist will take them down every time......just remeber it isnt a rugby league mtach!!...u dont go in like a tackle without using ur head!!! also grapplers do know what to expect of their opponents...and many or even most have a little or enough knowledge of stand up fighting!!!! wax on fellas! boo!
bjjbarbie Posted April 8, 2002 Posted April 8, 2002 many of u tkd'ist are showing heaps of ignorance towards bjj!!!.....just remember that rules apply to bjj tournament aswell. in class u may have learnt the crushing blow of an axe kick...but of course...in many tournamnt this move is banned!!!! and yes in bjj tournament street tacktics like eye gauges and groin grabs are banned...though in training this is an essential focus to ones learning!!!! bjj is very much a street fighting methos as remember 95% OF FIGHTS END UP ON THE GROUND AT ONE POINT IN TIME!!! so therefor do u think a teacher would not cover these essential targets in class!!! USE UR BRAIN FELLAS!!!!!!! boo!
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