MA school really time orientated

[47MartialMan]

The problem with testing/ranks, is that the mentality, for a novice, is that it is always on the mind. In the later ranks, they seem to come and go without much notice.

 

If one is thinking about tersting/ranking, one is truely not thinking about training and their art.

[AngelaG]

The problem with testing/ranks, is that the mentality, for a novice, is that it is always on the mind. In the later ranks, they seem to come and go without much notice.

 

If one is thinking about tersting/ranking, one is truely not thinking about training and their art.

 

Yeah but do you expect a 10th kyu to really be engrossed in the training and the finer points of the art? Let's face it, half the time at that rank you are busy trying to make a stance without falling over. At that point even the 8th kyus look pretty awesome to you (They know 3 kata? WOW! ) It would be nice to think that by the time you get up to the higher kyus that you are belt chasing less, but IMO the time you truely stop being so worried is when you get your black belt, after all at that point you are no longer being given a different kata every few months and you can finally go back and study your old stuff in a little bit more detail and start to make it your own. One of the main problems is that the whole syllabus can often be geared towards the gradings, if the student has nothing else to entertain their mind all they will be thinking about is the next grade so that they can move on and learn new things - make the lessons interesting for all grades and this will happen less.

[47MartialMan]

 

Yeah but do you expect a 10th kyu to really be engrossed in the training and the finer points of the art? Let's face it, half the time at that rank you are busy trying to make a stance without falling over. At that point even the 8th kyus look pretty awesome to you (They know 3 kata? WOW! )

 

But this is almost contradictory in the same paragraph and almost agrees with what I had posted.

 

Lets examine:

 

Yeah but do you expect a 10th kyu to really be engrossed in the training and the finer points of the art?

 

Yes for a answer and you had just stated the reason following: Let's face it, half the time at that rank you are busy trying to make a stance without falling over. At that point even the 8th kyus look pretty awesome to you (They know 3 kata?

 

It would be nice to think that by the time you get up to the higher kyus that you are belt chasing less, but IMO the time you truely stop being so worried is when you get your black belt, after all at that point you are no longer being given a different kata every few months and you can finally go back and study your old stuff in a little bit more detail and start to make it your own.

 

But that should be happening "as" you train-not after.

 

One of the main problems is that the whole syllabus can often be geared towards the gradings,

 

It is. The rank is the issue because they are there.

 

if the student has nothing else to entertain their mind all they will be thinking about is the next grade so that they can move on and learn new things

 

Many are not concerend with learning new things, just getting a new/higher/next rank.

 

- make the lessons interesting for all grades and this will happen less.

[ninjanurse]

but know for the past week i have learned nothing.

 

A whole week! What are you going to do when you are a 3rd dan and learn only one new technique or form a year?

 

[AngelaG]

47MartialMan I don't mean this to sound rude but I'm not sure quite how else to phrase this. You appear to think that everyone should have achieved perfection of character. People are driven by grade and if grade was abolished there would be other systems in place that would end up doing the same thing! People aren't perfect, yeah the most important thing at 10th kyu is getting rid of that white belt, everything else is secondary. So what? Karate (MA) is an ongoing thing there's plenty of time to worry about the finer details and working on one's character.

 

A 10th kyu isn't engrossed in the finer details of the art because all they can fret about it the big stuff! You aren't worrying about whether the timing in the kata would be better as 12...3 or 123 because you're too busy trying not to fall over when you do the odd turns.

 

I think when you are working towards a grading all you can worry about is getting the moves down, maybe knowing the bunkai... there is no time for tweaking and making it your own. Remember Shodan is beginner. If you go into too much depth before you get there then a black belt would take forever and you'd be done once you get there.

 

So my point would be, so what if rank is the issue. I know students (children and adults) are proud of achieving their next grade? Should they be ashamed of feeling good about this? No! Your martial art should be your love and be fun, why should we feel guilty for having some fun? Work hard, train hard but enjoy yourself and if you want to celebrate getting your next belt then knock yourself out. Remember you have to treat adults like adults, if they are being conned out of money then it is not your place to be the grading police, they have to make their own decisions about whether to leave or not! As I've said before some people will always find some way of extracting money out of other people it doesn't mean the system's corrupt, it means the person is corrupt!

[47MartialMan]

47MartialMan I don't mean this to sound rude but I'm not sure quite how else to phrase this. You appear to think that everyone should have achieved perfection of character.

 

No-I think they work on this practicing MA before belts, propganda, and commercialism. Thus, all I am saying is that; these things were not needed back then, as they have become, in order to work on that achievement. That achievement can be obtained, without these things, as they are abused in some cases.

 

People are driven by grade and if grade was abolished there would be other systems in place that would end up doing the same thing!

 

People are driven by grade because it became a method to motivate (which is not wrong in this case), but to abuse it with the effort for extra monetary gain and boorish recognition (which is wrong in some cases).

 

People aren't perfect, yeah the most important thing at 10th kyu is getting rid of that white belt, everything else is secondary. So what? Karate (MA) is an ongoing thing there's plenty of time to worry about the finer details and working on one's character.

 

Thus in the many "achievements" and later, when one had obtained the "coveted" rank. And they get their butt kicked, they blame the very system, their very "achievement". Thus they, and others, will develop negative thoughts on it. So, now the "achievement" is bashed.

 

A 10th kyu isn't engrossed in the finer details of the art because all they can fret about it the big stuff! You aren't worrying about whether the timing in the kata would be better as 12...3 or 123 because you're too busy trying not to fall over when you do the odd turns.

 

Not in cases where the "coveted" rank is written on the walls, presented in clubs to join, in all, dangled as a "apple" in front of "mules".

 

I think when you are working towards a grading all you can worry about is getting the moves down, maybe knowing the bunkai... there is no time for tweaking and making it your own. Remember Shodan is beginner If you go into too much depth before you get there then a black belt would take forever and you'd be done once you get there.

 

Popycock. Because this was all done long before belts. Announce to them, that the belt rank will be omitted, and find how many will omit themselves. Thus, your point is almost mute, in refernce to the poster whom is comcentrating on testing/rank preceding skill, as to solify my point.

 

So my point would be, so what if rank is the issue. I know students (children and adults) are proud of achieving their next grade? Should they be ashamed of feeling good about this? No!

 

I agree that they should be proud of achievements, as long as the achievements are presented not to equal "total skill", as often it is misunderstood.

 

Your martial art should be your love and be fun, why should we feel guilty for having some fun? Work hard, train hard but enjoy yourself and if you want to celebrate getting your next belt then knock yourself out.

 

Yes, in order to motivate, forget that training was designed for boring, repetitious, and rigorous routines. We have to motivate with ranks and fun. Don't feel guilty for having fun, understand the ethics behind the rank, though once the "coveted one" is obtained, the drop-out rates increase-so much for the "apple" no longer there. So much for "fun" in no longer being there. Thus, the point is accurate-without the rank-without the "apple", the mule will no longer continue.

 

Remember you have to treat adults like adults, if they are being conned out of money then it is not your place to be the grading police, they have to make their own decisions about whether to leave or not!

 

But I am not talking about adults, as much as juveniles. And a lot of adults, can be treated as such, if they develop wrong manners and have false conceptions, about ranking. The grading police? LOL. Descision to leave was not a option, because the ranks can get abused and be mis-leading. The decision was already made, from the "dangling apple" anyway

 

As I've said before some people will always find some way of extracting money out of other people it doesn't mean the system's corrupt, it means the person is corrupt!

 

No, how many people verse those that remain, after the rank of the "coveted one"? How many have to pay riduclous premiums for the "coveted one". The last highest price, for the "last" or desired goal. Let one "pay" extremely for this achievement. Let there be a price fixed for learned ability, skill, and achievement. Thus, others see the opportunity in reciprocal, to do the same. Thus, the concept gets corrupt as much as the people.

 

Now this is where I keep stating, that I do find a usefulness with the system. But its abuse causes guilt and shame. Its abuse and misunderstanding causes mental and physical retaliation. And this is my point.

[AngelaG]

No-I think they work on this practicing MA before belts, propganda, and commercialism. Thus, all I am saying is that; these things were not needed back then, as they have become, in order to work on that achievement. That achievement can be obtained, without these things, as they are abused in some cases.

The problem with this statement is that this is not the old days. We have moved on. We are not in feudal Okinawa, post-war Japan etc. We are in the 21st Century in the Western World therefore basing training on what happened hundreds of years ago would be inappropriate. We no longer have the same worries and drives as people did in those days. Westerners need constant reassurance that they are improving; that they are getting somewhere. We could all sit back smugly and say that if we remove the belt system then only the truly dedicated would stay but what would be the point of that? We would be shooting ourselves in the foot! Do you not think that some of the true great Western masters maybe started and continued to stay because of the drive that the great feeling of grading gave them? Do you not think that maybe there would be one of two less great Masters out there if in their very early days it had all been made to hard and too serious for them. Let people have their fun and see if they want to build their passion and dedication around that later.

 

The entire Western culture is built on Commercialism. Why should karate be any different? Should every karate teacher be teaching out of their garage and for purely altruistic reasons, for the warm fluffy feeling it gives them knowing that they are giving something to society? This is a false premise; even people that change lives every day teachers, doctors, nurses, fireman, and police do it for wages. If you want to teach karate full time then somewhere along the line you are going to have to work out where you can make some money – whether the monthly premium is higher or you charge a bit more on the gradings - money for rent, insurance, equipment, overheads needs to come from somewhere and on top of that you need to make a wage (and a wage for whomever you have working under you). People should not be made to feel guilty just because they want to set up a for-profit dojo. Ok there are people out there abusing the system by charging stupid amounts for training etc. but at the end of the day everyone pays what they are willing to pay for their tuition. For example, if my tuition was to suddenly sky-rocket to £100 a month I would have to decide whether I thought it was worth it for me. Is the enjoyment, fitness benefits etc. worth that price to me. I might say no, the person next to me may say yes. Of course if prices are suddenly raised too high the students can always vote with their feet, what makes more money 100 students at £20 a month or 5 students at £100 a month?

 

 

People are driven by grade because it became a method to motivate (which is not wrong in this case), but to abuse it with the effort for extra monetary gain and boorish recognition (which is wrong in some cases).

Again there is nothing wrong with making money out of karate. After all it is a hobby. Think about the football industry, it makes millions every year. I only support my cruddy local team but 2 home games a month would be pretty much the same as I pay for a whole months training… and that’s before you take into account their little money-makers, the merchandise, the food, the club pub. But no one ever thinks a football manager is corrupt when they make their team make money.

 

Secondly what is wrong with a little recognition for one’s achievements? Ok there should definitely not be an air of “Look at me, I’m great” but a self-congratulatory pat on the back and the respect from your peers for an achievement well done is not such a bad thing. Everything in balance, a balance of self-respect and humility against being able to be proud of what one has achieved after putting in years of hard work!

 

 

Thus in the many "achievements" and later, when one had obtained the "coveted" rank. And they get their butt kicked, they blame the very system, their very "achievement". Thus they, and others, will develop negative thoughts on it. So, now the "achievement" is bashed.

Anyone can get their butt kicked. Anyone can be sucker punched. Not everyone is doing MA for self defence. What about other achievements? Weightloss, character building, self-confidence building, being able to kick as high as your head, being able to do 100 push ups. Your goals are not the same as my goals and it would be wrong of you to impose your goals on anyone else. In the same way my achievements are mine only and may not mean anything to the person down the road. Personally I believe that if I get in a fight at all I have ‘failed’, even if I hand my opponent’s butt to them on a plate. The very fact that I have put myself in a situation where I need to use karate and all my training has not helped me to avoid a fight has meant that I have failed. But there are other people who measure their success on how many people they can injure in another street fight on a Saturday night. Therefore you cannot judge what will disillusion one person. If they are willing to let negative thoughts build instead of using the experience and learning from it then that is just the type of character they are, and if it wasn’t one thing it would be another!

 

 

Not in cases where the "coveted" rank is written on the walls, presented in clubs to join, in all, dangled as a "apple" in front of "mules".

Firstly, you are treating people as though they are stupid again. The point is that your apple in front of the mule analogy is a bad one as we are not dumb animals. I said that a 10th kyu isn’t engrossed in the finer details not that they weren’t interested in getting a black belt. I think that the majority of people start with the intention of getting a black belt. But at 10th kyu it all seems so far away, you may be told that it’s a minimum of X years. You look up at the black belts doing their stuff and looking so good and you look back at yourself barely able to make a stance and you think you’ll never get that good. To have a black belt on the wall what does this do? Simple it shows them that this goal is achievable after all. There is nothing wrong in showing a white belt what it is possible to achieve.

 

Then the mid kyu days; you seem to have been training for so long and yet you are still mid kyu ranks. Stuck in a Martial Arts No-Mans-Land. These are the times when you need a reminder that you’ve come so far and you still have a way to go, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Popycock. Because this was all done long before belts. Announce to them, that the belt rank will be omitted, and find how many will omit themselves. Thus, your point is almost mute, in refernce to the poster whom is comcentrating on testing/rank preceding skill, as to solify my point.

And what do we gain from these people leaving?

 

As for the OP and gradings before getting to black belt I think that people need to realise that there is much more to it than skill. If you were naturally talented at karate would it be right for you to be able to pick up a black belt in 6 months? IMO no. At which point has this kind of person been tested? Being a black belt is about more than doing fancy twirling kicks and being a top notch athlete. Other aspects need to be tested: Dedication – If it takes you 4 years to get there will you carry on? Effort – just because a natural athlete can kick to head level does not mean you should forget about the person with bad legs who can only kick to waist level but puts in 100% every time! Maturity – if you are not put in for a grading, or fail a grading are you able to realise that it is a minor hurdle and that you need to dust yourself off and carry on? I could go on…

I agree that they should be proud of achievements, as long as the achievements are presented not to equal "total skill", as often it is misunderstood.

Total skill? Skill in what?

 

A grade is not really transferable. Definitely not from club to club but even inter-club. Some clubs will grade on the more competition side, some of the more self-defence side and some on the more effort/time put in side. If someone from a more SD club was to attend a competition club their skill based on the clubs subjective judgment would be poor. But they could be top dog in their own club.

 

Inter-club – a 20 year old male at the peak of his physical fitness would not be judged at the same level as a 50 year old female. They both need to put in maximum effort but their so called ‘skill level’ will be no where near each other. Therefore should she be less proud when she grades because she has not got the same amount of skill? Of course not… grade is subjective.

 

 

Yes, in order to motivate, forget that training was designed for boring, repetitious, and rigorous routines. We have to motivate with ranks and fun. Don't feel guilty for having fun, understand the ethics behind the rank, though once the "coveted one" is obtained, the drop-out rates increase-so much for the "apple" no longer there. So much for "fun" in no longer being there. Thus, the point is accurate-without the rank-without the "apple", the mule will no longer continue.

If people leave that’s their choice. You cannot make assumptions, you just have to teach everyone the best you can and hope you have made it fun enough, interesting enough, useful enough that they will stay after they get their shodan. If they don’t decide to stay though, so what? As long as the instructor knows that they have taught to the best of their abilities then they have nothing to be ashamed of if people drop out. Everyone has different goals. Some people may decide to train until they get fit, and then leave. Some people may decide that once they get their shodan their goal has been achieved and move on to other things. Some people’s goals may be making it a part of their lifestyle and being the best karateka that ever walked this earth. The point is that some people never intend to do it forever, and if the black belt wasn’t there they would just find another place to finish their training.

 

Yes the repetitions of serious training can be boring but to become good it has to be done. Therefore something to show why we are doing these things over and over again can be a good thing.

 

 

But I am not talking about adults, as much as juveniles. And a lot of adults, can be treated as such, if they develop wrong manners and have false conceptions, about ranking. The grading police? LOL. Descision to leave was not a option, because the ranks can get abused and be mis-leading. The decision was already made, from the "dangling apple" anyway

 

Your assumption is false. The black belt does not make people leave. They were going to leave anyway, the desire to reach black belt just prolonged their stay. So what? It’s their choice. How does that affect you? It’s better for them to leave and have the enthusiastic people stay isn’t it? If there is an air of enthusiasm it will permeate through the dojo and help drive everyone. Also would you rather train with someone who is a high grade but doesn’t want to be there, or a lower grade who is giving it their all?

No, how many people verse those that remain, after the rank of the "coveted one"? How many have to pay riduclous premiums for the "coveted one". The last highest price, for the "last" or desired goal. Let one "pay" extremely for this achievement. Let there be a price fixed for learned ability, skill, and achievement. Thus, others see the opportunity in reciprocal, to do the same. Thus, the concept gets corrupt as much as the people.

As I have said before there are always people ready to make a quick buck. That does not mean that the whole idea is corrupt. Everyone has a price they are willing to pay. If I pay £3000 for my black belt testing but in my eyes I am happy with that price, and I am satisfied with the overall result have I been conned out of money? If I knew the price beforehand but was prepared to pay it that is my lookout, no one else’s. I’m not saying it’s necessarily right for people to charge that but on the other hand if there are people out there willing to pay it you will always find people willing to charge it. It’s a fact of life. If you don’t want to pay that then do your research and go and find someone that does charge a price you are willing to pay. At the end of the day either way you could end up with a black belt around your waist and the only person it truly means anything to… is you! That is why you are paying money for your black belt… not for your instructor... not for your parents… not for Gichin Funakoshi, but for you. Find somewhere that does what you want at a price you are willing to pay and go for it!

 

Rank is subjective. Never make the mistake of comparing the validity of your grade with anyone else’s because the nub of the matter is that the only person that your belt should matter to is yourself. Do I care whether you got a black belt after 20 years training, in a Shaolin temple, on top of a mountain through wind, rain and snow, or whether you picked it up for £2 down the local sports store? Not really, all I see at first is two black belts. Until I get to know you as a person and see you demonstrate your skills I cannot pass judgement on you or on your grade.

 

Black belts. A great motivator, a fantastic tool within the martial arts industry but still to be taken with a pinch of salt? Sure but wouldn’t it be nice if everyone believed in black belt excellence!

 

My hands hurt!

[Drunken Monkey]

once again, i do not see what is being argued over?

 

I have said before that the problem is not with the belt system but with abuse of the belt system.

 

in fact, we have all said that.

 

i can stab you with a pen so the pen is bad thing?

 

we all know the belt system is being abused.

 

you don't need to tell us (over and over and over....)

 

but does that automatically mean that removing the belt system would fix the problems?

 

i've stabbed you with a pen before so remove all pens and i won't stab you?

 

i've asked you before,

 

but what do you suggest we do?

 

how would you maintain a regular, organised teaching system,

 

maintain a organised class that has hundreds of members in many areas that may or may not meet up

 

and hence would require a means to check levels of training?

 

the problem i have with what 47 is posting is that he is taking some very specific points and applying them to all examples.

 

he says that some places abuse the belt system.

 

does that mean ALL places abuse the belt system?

 

one thing i will address is this:

 

"Yes, in order to motivate, forget that training was designed for boring, repetitious, and rigorous routines. We have to motivate with ranks and fun."

 

not quite right......

 

you forget that the original conditions from which the fighting arts we practice originated do not exist anymore.

 

before, training really was for fighting and your life really did/could on it, so much more than today.

 

before the motivation was survival.

 

today, the motivation is learning.

 

and this is where the belt system is best.

 

it is a good means to organise what can be a very large and complex thing into smaller chunks for easier 'learning'.

 

fact is, we don't all move into our martial arts school and live and breathe training 24 hours a day.

 

at best we manage 3-4 two hour lessons a week.

 

during these two hours we would warm up, drill, spar.

 

not much time for learning, so a system is needed to organise and methodically teach the arts.

 

i have always drawn a clear distinction in modern training between learning and training.

 

i have always seen the coloured belt phase of it as 'learning'

 

and

 

the black belt phase as 'training'.

 

and before you pick at this,

 

don't argue over the use of words,

 

you know what i mean......

 

angela.

 

"Anyone can get their butt kicked. Anyone can be sucker punched. Not everyone is doing MA for self defence. "

 

this is something i'm not sure if i'm entirely comfortable with.

 

i'm of the firm notion that a martial art, whether or not you are praticing for self defence,

 

SHOULD enable you to defend yourself.

 

if your training doesn't serve this purpose,

 

then i think something is 'missing'.

 

on the other hand,

 

i know this is whole other debate.....

[Jinxx0r]

i have always drawn a clear distinction in modern training between learning and training.

 

i have always seen the coloured belt phase of it as 'learning'

 

and

 

the black belt phase as 'training'.

 

and before you pick at this,

 

don't argue over the use of words,

 

you know what i mean......

 

I like this way of thinking about the belt system and agree with you on it.

 

Oh, and Angela, I checked out your site (in your sig), I like the katas and the one steps. Very cool. They need to add more kata videos though

 

[AngelaG]

Oh, and Angela, I checked out your site (in your sig), I like the katas and the one steps. Very cool. They need to add more kata videos though

 

 

Thanks. More kata will be coming soon, I've just been really busy over the last few weeks with training, instructing and freelance web design - all on top of my day job!! I'll have a word with some of the guys over the next two day to try and get at least another 3 kata up there!