delta1 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 I'll have to do this from memory, since all my notes are burried in a remodel project. So Dm and some of the WCers can hopefully correct me or add to this where they think necessary. Same with the AK guys. I'm going to be a little sketchy for brevities sake any how, so feel free to add if you think something important is missing. Also, I'm not going to embarras myself by trying to use the proper WC terms, and I'll keep the Kenpo terms to a minimum so as not to confuse anyone else. Wing Chun Centerline Theory; There are three centerlines involved in any fight- yours, your opponents, and a central line. A persons center line runs from the top of his head, through his center of gravity, and to the ground between his feet. The central line runs from your center line to his center line. The fighter who controls the central line is in control of the fight. You can gain control of this central line by either opening him up and attacking his center, by checking and controling limbs/joints, by gaining a dominant angle (inside or out), or by any combination of these. Control of the central line is also control of his center line. An example of all methods might be a counter for a two hand high attack (choke, push, double punch, etc.). His center line is commited along the central line. Step in with your right, and slightly off the central line at an angle as your arms move inside his and upward and outward, wedgeing his arms apart and establishing contact at forearms and his elbows. Your lead leg should check his left knee. Your center line now lies on a slightly different central line, and since you have control of his arms and base, you have established control of the central line. He is facing slightly off the central line, which is a moderately unballanced position, placing one side and its' weapons at a greater range, and an awkward angle for use. You have all his front/central targets open to attack. Another example, useing the same attack, would be to move straight in along the central line, your right knee checking his left knee. Instead of simply wedging his arms apart, the right carries up and out as the left circles up, out, then down to pass his right inside. You are now outside, with him twisted off the central line and definately out of ballance and with all weapons neutralized. This would be more for an attack where his right hand lagged the left by a half beat and he had less forward commitment. But the real difference is that in the first example you moved off and established a new central line, and in the second you moved him off the central line. Hopefully that wasn't too confusing, and I hope I didn't botch the WC applications too much. American Kenpo Dimensional Control Theory; A person, as a physical entity, has three demensions- height, width, and deapth. You can move in these three demensions also. Height- up and down. Width- side to side. Deapth- forward and back. Control of these demensions restricts your opponents movement and thus limmits his offensive and defensive options. Controling all three is total control of your opponent. Control may be momentary or absolute, partial or complete. In the examples above, the knee checks can restrict movement in all three demensions momentarily. And if done as a knee buckle, can totally restrict movement in width and deapth, while limmiting movement in height to downward. The control of his arms also restricts movement, though this is more a transitional control as you are constantly changing his position and the demension(s) controled changes as position canges. Now, let's look at the use of the open ended triangle to attack into. Visualize the angles created by the opponents variouse postures in these examples. These angles are defined by his limbs and body in their variouse positions. It is simply a more specific way to look at 'openings' in your opponents guard and position. Let's say that in the first example, where you lifted and spread his arms, you crane over and out at his elbows and sharply yank him forward. As you do this, do a stance change to turn your left shoulder forward. He will be moved into a bent forward posture, and his face should strike your left shoulder. You have again moved the central line, while pulling him along the old central line (in the direction of his commitment). The bent posture is a change in both height and deapth. The open ended triangle is formed by his arms with the apex at his head, where you've just attacked useing his own motion to impact yur shoulder. His center line is tipped forward in an usstable and off ballanced posture. Another triangle that exists is the angle formed by his arms and body as he bends forward. Attack into this by shifting weight to your trailing (left) foot and striking any available target with an upward knee strike. So, we see here that instead of guiding naturally to the apex of the traingle, you can pick targets within the triangle to attack. Hopefully by now you can see the corelation between WC Centerline Theory and AK Demensional control Theory. These are really visualization tools to help us understand the difference in good and bad technique, and to help us think instinctively. The mind thinks pictorally, then translates to words or motion. This kind of visualization is necessary to internalize concepts and to start to think and act instinctively. Now, the question is, how does your system look at this? What visualization tools do you use? Actually, the larger question might be "Did I make any sense here?" If not, feel free to call me a Bozo and ask for clarification. 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Drunken Monkey Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 ...right. i think i get what you're saying now. we tend to work mainly on the centre line. that is our 'key' to fighting. a little tidying up. as i was taught: i) the centre line is the line that bisects your body. following from this, a horizontal line is drawn across your navel to separate upper and lower. another pair of lines is drawn at your nipples and the base of your crotch. this is a sort of 'middle' section. ii) the mother line is the kebab stick i mentioned in the other thread. this is the line around which you pivot. iii) the plane drawn by the central line and the mother line is what creates the central plane. this plane should be the thing that points towards your opponents centreline and what we work along/around. (conversely, you should aim to not be on his central plane) so i guess in terms of your triangles when entering, it's all there (if you draw the lines). in wing chun, we tend to shoot hands out when they are free. (the way we work, if our hands are free, it means yours are not....) as such we don't actively search for targets as you seem to be suggesting with the triangles concept. also, going back to the six strengths/gates. these tend to be natural targets, cos they're what we make contact with anyway. i guess we don't really have a triangle visualisation. not all places teach using the 6 strengths/gates but nearly all places teach using the centreline, motherline and central plane. we judge good technique/positioning by how it affects these things. as i said in the balance thread, if your technique is good/strong, you don't need to make an attack cos you would've 'shut him down' by completely disrupting his ability to maintain any control of his centre plane (and structure) i.e he collapses/falls/trips but like i said before, i think i'd have to cross hands to really get ya. post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta1 Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 Thanks, DM! I knew you could do a better job on the WC side of this. I stayed away from planes to keep it short and simple, but they do help in visualizing. And that 'mother line' concept does help visualize movement, both on a rotational axis, and as the opponent is unballanced by tilting or moving the mother line (though I don't know if WC looks at it this way). Good explanation! Freedom isn't free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Monkey Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 there's a little thing about 'breaking/cracking/deciphering' the motherline. this is about disrupting the motherline and hence disrupting the structure. the mother line is the line that determines the direction. er.... the direction of movement is generally, perpendicular to your motherline. i.e if it (motherline) isn't vertical, it is 'broken' (or again, facing the wrong way). um, i think that was long way of saying 'yes', motherline is what is used to look at balance (in conjunction with looking at structure, which relates to the motherline anyway....) post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta1 Posted November 9, 2004 Author Share Posted November 9, 2004 OK, let's talk about a visualization technique common to most systems. DIAGRAMS. The most common diagram that in so far as being used as a study of motion is probaly the Cardinal Directions. An x superimposed on a +, it represents the primary striking angles, with the point of intersection representing a thrust. Next is the Taiji, or Yin-Yang symbol. Probably more common than any other, but used less as a diagram to study motion by most of the systems that use it in their crest. It epitomizes the motion and interaction of Taiji and other 'soft' styles. The Five Element diagram is also an excellant study in motion and interaction. FMA's and others use the Male & Female Triangles to represent their primary system of motion. Inscribed in a circle, it is an excellant visual depiction of what they do, and motion in general. American Kenpo has the Universal Pattern, which diagrams all possible patterns of motion. Now, besides looking real cool on patches and crests, all these diagrams were intended to be studied and meditated on, broken down and used to aid understanding. They can be viewed flat, and you'll get a basic understanding of motion. But they can be turned through an infinite number of postures so that circles look like elipses and elipses look like circles, with the straight lines superimposed on them looking shorter or longer. Viewing the diagrams like this gives an even deeper understanding of motion and interaction. The next phase is to view the diagrams in motion as they go through these postures. Now you get changing motion, spiraling effects and clearing paths. So, here's the question: What diagrams or symbols does your system use, and how do they represent motion? Freedom isn't free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta1 Posted November 9, 2004 Author Share Posted November 9, 2004 Well, I discovered google the other day! Found a pretty good illustration of the Universal Pattern: http://www.kenpo-texas.com/universe.htm They have a good intro writeup as well, but there is a LOT more illustrated there than what they list. I like to lay out this pattern with the others I listed in my previouse post and meditate/contemplate their applications. All the applications in the other diagrams are represented here. Conversely, this can be developed from any of the other diagrams. They each do give a different representation, but motion is motion in the end. The different diagrams emphasize different concepts of motion, though. For example, the Universal Pattern emphasizes Kenpos' tendency to round corners and elongate circles. It also emphasizes the ballance between circular and linear, and the interaction of the two. The UP is also a good teaching or communicatng tool. A portion of the pattern can be referenced to illustrate footwork or hand motions, etc. And we use it to illustrate concepts and exchange ideas. Mostly, though, it is useful for developing your own understanding. Like a schematic drawing, it gives a representation of structure and change, principles and concepts. It can diagram the intricate interactions of two opponents- like a 3D jigsaw puzzle in motion. It doesn't replace hard work and training, but it does help us to get more out of that training. Freedom isn't free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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