Most comprehensive close up fighting art

[Treebranch]

Well there are styles that can strike at all ranges and grapple at all ranges, but it really depends on how much time you want to spend studying something and what fits your personality and temperment. Not that I am saying that Budo Taijutsu is the most comprehensive system out there, but it is very comprehensive. There is so much to learn you will never learn it all, but you will master the essence of it and that's what is important. You master the basics and those basics will grow with time. It's really an amazing art.

[judoguy]

I have seen them attempted to be applied in real combat by high ranking practitioners but they alway's have failed against a decent attacker.

 

I'm interested in what you've got to say Judoguy, could you give some more details? Where they to slow, unable to use any techniques, overpowered perhaps? Who were they fighting against a street brawler or someone with training? If it was someone with training were they able to use their techniques more easily, or effectivly?

 

I'm also interested to hear what anyone else has to say about this. Wing Chun has been mentioned as effective numerous times on these boards and in training I've always found it to be quite straight forward and logical in its approach and having effective strikes and defences. I'd say the striking aspect of it seem in principle at least as effective as the limited Kick Boxing I did, can anyone else compare them with more experience?

 

The main problem I have is timing, to correctly recognise what I'm seeing and feeling and being reactive to it with my Wing Chun. This is something I expect to improve with training and sparring. I'm very keen to spar with people from other arts, or indeed with no training at all because I doubt I'll ever have to fight another Wing Chun guy in the street and I think that unpredictability is important.

 

Hey Nick_UKWC. First off I would like to say thank you for the spirit in which you asked this question. You asked in a way that indicates that you are willing to listen and learn and I can appreciate that. It's very refreshing, especially around here where any questioning of someones art and/or training methods is considered sacrilage (spelling?) Anyway to answer your question I have trained in martial arts for 34 years. Judo mostly, but I have trained with and fought people from various styles. I'm also a police officer who has trained defensive tactics to various organizations and to civilians as well.

 

I like Sevenstar agree that the training methods play a huge role in what makes or breaks a marial art(tist) But it goes beyond that. I used to think that any martial art could be used successfully if the stylist trains full contact all the time. But then as I progressed in my studies I came to the realization that all styles aren't created equal and that some are in fact BETTER then others. I noticed that the people who could make their wingchun, aikido, and kung fu work were able to do so because they only used the techniques with the highest success probability. Alot of the other less useful techniques were filtered out so to speak. Rather the person consciously knew that they were in fact filtering out those techniques I don't know. But what I do know is that the martial arts that are highly successful I.E. muay thai, Kyokushin, judo, bjj, boxing, etc. is because they focus on techniques that are more atuned to natural human movements.

 

What do I mean by that? If you were to watch video of streetfights you would see that most fights usually have the same sequence of events. Shoving, clinching, grappling/wrestling, punching, and sometimes kicking.( Edit: I'm not talking about the mental aspects that lead up to the fights, but only of the actual physical act of fighting.) They don't alway's happen in that order but you can work the scenario out any way you choose to. From those various fighting angles if you look closely, you can start to see why muay thai, kyokushin, judo, bjj, wrestling or boxing would work. Those arts are not based on movements of animals or insects, but of human movements. Basically in a sense they have evolved from the chaos of the kind of street fighting you see on those crazy videos and into what they are now. The movements are simple, graceful, and feel natural. Not clumsy or inhibiting like some complicated kung fu forms and karate katas are. They naturally flow with the chaos of a real fight and have become systematised for maximum efficiency.

 

As for your wing chun I would say that some of the movements are natural and some aren't, but the centerline theories of Wing Chun are sound. The only problem with most WC styles are in fact the training methods. Start training full contact and you will get the results you want. But I must warn you not to be suprised if you end up eliminating alot of your techniques in favor of the more useful ones. Your style of fighting will start to look less like wing chun and more like boxing and /or muay thai.

[Treebranch]

I do agree that full contact training is very important, but I think it should be taught after lots of drilling and technique training first. What happens alot in arts that focus too much on full contact is, that they will throw someone into a full contact sparring match usually with someone of equal skill which is little to no skill and all they do is punch and kick wildly, flinching and closing their eyes every time a punch comes at them. The flinch response can be curbed with sound basic training before going full contact. Of course this is a generalization, because there are people who can just go in and naturally aren't flinchers. The less you flinch, the more effective you will be at avoiding real hits. People rely way too much on the flinch response in sport MA's and fades and fakes are used alot in order to distract your opponent. Just my opinion and something to think about.

[Drunken Monkey]

.....i've mentioned this before because this topic and the specific question of wing chun's efectiveness has come up before.

 

wing chun, in the way that it is TRAINED, not in the way it is taught, has a problem.

 

there is a trend that yip man started, in placing too much emphasis in the rolling hands.

 

the point of lok sau/poon sau is that it gives you a chance to work your moves safely.

 

what doesn't happen these days is the taking of thoses safe 'experiments' and putting them under stress situations/testing.

 

following on from this, there is too much emphasis on use of the dummy to work moves at 'hard' pace.

 

there is also the problem of working solely within the confines of wing chun

 

i.e you are trained to expect wing chun type movements.

 

add all this together and you end up with training that doesn't prepare you for REAL non wing chun attacks, fully moving/reacting partner or non wing chun reactions and more importantly, no pressure.

 

fortunately i have seen a few classes that have started to ditch the, and i hate to call it this but can't avoid it, Hong Kong method of training.

 

bruises and bloody noses are not uncommon.

 

a friend of mine goes to a class that has a 'invite' fight night.

 

incidentally, that class is run by a guy who does doors.

 

"if you look closely, you can start to see why muay thai, kyokushin, judo, bjj, wrestling or boxing would work"

 

not sure if it's about the style.

 

i'd argue that these are more 'successful' because they have a good hard contact competition format

 

and in the case of boxing, a lot of emphasis on the other aspects of training

 

i.e circuit training.

 

as i said, wing chun relies to much on it's rolling hands.

 

i think wing chun needs desparately to look outside of itself for 'testing' its techniques.

 

"As for your wing chun I would say that some of the movements are natural and some aren't"

 

this is going to be hard to explain but the movements are natural.

 

the thing is, some of the movements are reactionary movements.

 

in the case of the wing arm, arguably the most unnatural move;

 

all it is, is a way for you 'collapse' your receiving arm on being pressed.

 

i've seen muay thai do a very similar thing.

 

in both versions, an elbow strike is a possible outcome.

 

what i have the hardest time doing, is trying to get people to stop using the movements as shown exactly in the form

 

and instead to try to get them to see what makes the movement strong and the angles involved.

 

it's pretty much like teaching guys about wrist locks.

 

you start off by showing the perfect example.

 

then you show them how to adjust the angles to maintain the lock on a moving/struggling partner.

 

once again i must end with the familiar words;

 

my posts are based on my experience of wing chun in the uk and in hk and might bare any significance on how it is taught in the us.

 

monkey out.

[judoguy]

I do agree that full contact training is very important, but I think it should be taught after lots of drilling and technique training first. What happens alot in arts that focus too much on full contact is, that they will throw someone into a full contact sparring match usually with someone of equal skill which is little to no skill and all they do is punch and kick wildly, flinching and closing their eyes every time a punch comes at them. The flinch response can be curbed with sound basic training before going full contact. Of course this is a generalization, because there are people who can just go in and naturally aren't flinchers. The less you flinch, the more effective you will be at avoiding real hits. People rely way too much on the flinch response in sport MA's and fades and fakes are used alot in order to distract your opponent. Just my opinion and something to think about.

 

I agree somewhat. People need to get principals down before you introduce them to full contact. There is also the problem of making a person timid if you bring them into full contact too quickly.

[Treebranch]

Good point Judoguy. This may sound cheesy but I like to compare dancing with MA's. In dance you have to learn the steps and the rythm and the flow, before you can dance adequately. Then you have dance with a partner and that partner may not know anything about dancing or very little. A good dancer will make it work. The most important part of any viable MA is to teach adaptability. If you have been taught properly you should be able to change your approach at the moment. If you have been taught to do something to same way over and over, it can became your strength and your biggest weakness. Blah, blah, blah, sorry just my opinion. By the way I am no dancer.

[SevenStar]

People rely way too much on the flinch response in sport MA's and fades and fakes are used alot in order to distract your opponent. Just my opinion and something to think about.

 

which sport MA's are you referring to?

[Nick_UKWC]

Okay, so as I suspected from the start the problem here is a taking the theory and drills of training and making them work in the chaos of a real fight.

 

I'd agree the only way to really deal with this is as much hands on experience as possible, and like I said probably out side of Wing Chun.

 

I'm looking forward to the challenges of my training in the future. My Sifu clearly loves what he's teaching us, you can see the glint in his eye when we really nail techniques and he speaks enthusiastically of what he calls the 'dirty' side of using Wing Chun, really applying it in messy, hands on way. He is also a big exponent of the simple is better approach.

 

I'll certainly be posting on the forums about this process and how effective and realistic I find them, in the mean time, I wonder if anyone has experience of successful Kung Fu training and application that they can share (without being hysterical )

 

As for leaving out a lot and fighting with what works, I expect and hope this will be the case

[Treebranch]

Any sport MA that makes you spar right off the bat and doesn't teach you the basics first. The only sport MA's I've studied are Lima Lama and Taekwondo, which the above was something I directly experienced and didn't find that making sparr before I knew anything did me any good.

[judoguy]

Any sport MA that makes you spar right off the bat and doesn't teach you the basics first. The only sport MA's I've studied are Lima Lama and Taekwondo, which the above was something I directly experienced and didn't find that making sparr before I knew anything did me any good.

 

I have never seen a Sport MA that didn't bring you along slowly. This includes Judo and bjj. No martial art in my experience just throws you out amongst the wolves without proper training first. Hell you can get through a large BJJ school without ever having to compete in grappling events at all. Just don't expect to earn your blackbelt though.