Most comprehensive close up fighting art

[SevenStar]

Hey SevenStar, I had train in Longfist too and those Wushu longfist are really full of crap and that's that there is no need to insult anyone ok? Nobody is wasting anytime on anyone we're cool are we?

 

of course we're cool - I don't get offended over anything on the internet. By wasting my time, I meant I'm having this debate with someone that's only got two months of experience...in two months I'm sure you really don't know a whole lot about baji and mit's methods and history, much less other styles this early in your training.

 

Yes I had only train in Baji Quan for two month from a teacher that takes away the time I study it by myself and read books about it. In some school around Vancouver, Baji Quan was use as a building block to train more advance style like Xing Yi and Bagua, you can check with that if you prefer.

 

One thing you will learn is that there really are no "more advanced" styles. Some have more complicated mechanics and such, but will not make you a better fighter than someone in a "lesser" style because of it.

 

One more thing, Long fist type style are not crap as I said, I have great respect for Long fist styles like Cha Quan, Hua Quan, Pao Quan and Ba Shan Fan. From the view of a combat art Wushu Longfist is useless just like Nan Quan and other Wushu style.

 

modern longfist doesn't usually tout itself as a combat art. However, it builds attributes that would be useful in combat. That said, I wouldn't train modern wushu if I wanted to learn how to fight.

 

You're right I don't really know much that is why I am here to learn from you guys if I said anything that is wrong you are very welcome to correct me and please don't look down at me because you think I am just a newbie thanks.

 

it's not an issue of looking down - this is just a discussion...

[Ottman]

Seven,

 

I guess you're right, there really isn't much to rebut, because we essentially agree with eachother. Usefulness is relative, but if I find a use in something you find useless, and I can apply that usefulness effectively, then wouldn't it be a good idea for you to at least understand how I make use of it so that I can't use it against you? This is exactly why I say that no technique is useless in training. You will at least learn how to defend against it by learning and practicing it. Know your enemies.

fighting is based on principles, and you don't need a wide variety of techniques to encompass them all.

 

Warlock already covered this in the post I quoted him on earlier.

 

 

 

spinning kicks are a balance issue. a hook kick is a flexibility issue. Naturally, if you are going to do a hook kick, the best way to get better at that kick is to practice it. But, as I stated, that's not a strength issue.

 

I don't know where strength specifically came into this argument, but if you practice spin kicks and hook kicks, by your definition above, then you will develop better balance and better flexibility. Are you going to tell me now that those traits are useless?!?

 

I can find a use for pocket lint. That doesn't make it useful...Not only that, but what may have been useful then may not be useful now. For example, a butterfly kick. One application of it was to provide a means for evading a weapon swung low while simultaneously allowing you to advance on your opponent. It's highly unlikely that you will run into someone swinging a staff or sword at your feet - there's really no need for butterfly kicking over it. You can try to use it to back up an opponent, but how efficient is that?

 

So you mean a butterfly kick wouldn't work against a leg sweep? Or no one attacks anyone with sticks, or maybe baseball bats anymore? It could happen, why not keep the butterfly in your repitoire just in case? (I'm sure you probably can do butterflies pretty well. whether you actually need or choose to use them is irrelevant, you at least have the option, why make it a weak option by not practicing it? Because you see it as useless? To me, that is a weak, lazy frame of mind to have.)

 

And also, that first line of your paragraph is completely contradictory within itself. Finding a use for something, by definition, makes it useful.

 

I mean didn't you ever see an episode of MaCGuyver? He'd probably find a way to kill you with that pocket lint

 

 

[dingyuan]

Yes SevenStar, there's still much more for me to learn, thanks.

[judoguy]

Other styles like wing chun or choy li fut I have never seen work under any circumstance.

i'm not sure i understand your comment. You've never seen them applied, or never seen them work when applied?

 

I have seen them attempted to be applied in real combat by high ranking practitioners but they alway's have failed against a decent attacker. I don't mean to be rude or anything and I certainly am not bashing the aesthetic appeal that these arts have. I do however question there combat proficency. Certainly there are exceptions and I'm sure there are some really good wing chun and choy li fut stylists out there, but in my experience I have never seen them applied successfully on the streets or in a controlled envoirnment.

 

I know that this is a sensitive subject for most people who do these arts but I have to be as honest as possible when someone asks for my opinion about a certain style of unarmed combat. Lots of people have been tricked into beliving they are learning an effective martial art only to get beat down in a real conflict. It's a shame that in the year 2004 people still fall for these MA scams but they do. Some may be able to make a style like bugua zang work, but I choose to master a martial art that gave me good combat skills in a short period of time because of my profession. I don't have time to develope my ki for 7 years before I can learn to fight. I develope my "KI" through hard physical training and mental preparation.

 

This often includes weight training, calistenics, running, proper diet, and full contact randori. Also through tai chi, scenerio training, and case studies. These are the things that make a successful combat martial artist.

[SevenStar]

Seven,

 

I guess you're right, there really isn't much to rebut, because we essentially agree with eachother. Usefulness is relative, but if I find a use in something you find useless, and I can apply that usefulness effectively, then wouldn't it be a good idea for you to at least understand how I make use of it so that I can't use it against you? This is exactly why I say that no technique is useless in training. You will at least learn how to defend against it by learning and practicing it. Know your enemies.

 

yeah, I can agree with that.

 

I don't know where strength specifically came into this argument, but if you practice spin kicks and hook kicks, by your definition above, then you will develop better balance and better flexibility. Are you going to tell me now that those traits are useless?!?

 

it came into it when someone mentioned using some of the seemingly useless movements to train the body in ways they can't with modern exercise.

 

So you mean a butterfly kick wouldn't work against a leg sweep? Or no one attacks anyone with sticks, or maybe baseball bats anymore? It could happen, why not keep the butterfly in your repitoire just in case?

 

for the same reason I stated above - inefficiency.

 

(I'm sure you probably can do butterflies pretty well. whether you actually need or choose to use them is irrelevant, you at least have the option, why make it a weak option by not practicing it? Because you see it as useless? To me, that is a weak, lazy frame of mind to have.)

 

No, it's making my fighting stronger. I train the things that I use the most. I fear the man who trains 1 technique 10,000 times more than the man who trains 10,000 techniques one time.

 

 

 

 

I mean didn't you ever see an episode of MaCGuyver? He'd probably find a way to kill you with that pocket lint

 

[Ottman]

I hear you Seven, I've definitely been playing the devil's advocate (so to speak) a little much here, but this debate of ours has definitely made me think about the nature of fights and the nature of martial arts, and that's what I joined this forum for so kudos to all of us.

 

As for your last statement in your last post, I've heard that quote before, and I don't disagree with it at all, but I'd just like to see more guys strive to be the guy who practices every technique 10,000 times. (However long it might take.)

[Nick_UKWC]

I have seen them attempted to be applied in real combat by high ranking practitioners but they alway's have failed against a decent attacker.

 

I'm interested in what you've got to say Judoguy, could you give some more details? Where they to slow, unable to use any techniques, overpowered perhaps? Who were they fighting against a street brawler or someone with training? If it was someone with training were they able to use their techniques more easily, or effectivly?

 

I'm also interested to hear what anyone else has to say about this. Wing Chun has been mentioned as effective numerous times on these boards and in training I've always found it to be quite straight forward and logical in its approach and having effective strikes and defences. I'd say the striking aspect of it seem in principle at least as effective as the limited Kick Boxing I did, can anyone else compare them with more experience?

 

The main problem I have is timing, to correctly recognise what I'm seeing and feeling and being reactive to it with my Wing Chun. This is something I expect to improve with training and sparring. I'm very keen to spar with people from other arts, or indeed with no training at all because I doubt I'll ever have to fight another Wing Chun guy in the street and I think that unpredictability is important.

[KBwanabee]

Can i just say that this topic has made interesting reading, some very different views going on. However I can still honestly say that i feel that Muay Thai / Kickboxing is probably one of the best close up fighting styles there is. I say this because it has very simple strikes straight forward punches, elbows, knees but it is the power at which these strikes are executed which make it such a deadly martial art. When in close combat in a real situation there is very little time to strike or be struck you have to make your strikes count and be devestating and you can bet a Muay Thai 3 strike combonation of any variety would be very effective.

 

However there are two other factors, 1 being it also depends on the person you are fightin and the skills they have are they a for instance a person with no martial arts experience if so they will never withsatnd the strikes from a Muay Thai practioner, however if they are a boxer they may well be a better striker up close as they have the hardest punching power. 2. It depends on your own ability a very compotent Thai kickboxer will obviously win against an average fighter (of another style) and vice versa.

 

I can only qualify it by saying that for upclose striking the effective use of knees, elbows and typical boxing strikes are mighty effective.

 

Just my two cents

[SevenStar]

I have seen them attempted to be applied in real combat by high ranking practitioners but they alway's have failed against a decent attacker.

 

I'm interested in what you've got to say Judoguy, could you give some more details? Where they to slow, unable to use any techniques, overpowered perhaps? Who were they fighting against a street brawler or someone with training? If it was someone with training were they able to use their techniques more easily, or effectivly?

 

I'm also interested to hear what anyone else has to say about this. Wing Chun has been mentioned as effective numerous times on these boards and in training I've always found it to be quite straight forward and logical in its approach and having effective strikes and defences. I'd say the striking aspect of it seem in principle at least as effective as the limited Kick Boxing I did, can anyone else compare them with more experience?

 

The main problem I have is timing, to correctly recognise what I'm seeing and feeling and being reactive to it with my Wing Chun. This is something I expect to improve with training and sparring. I'm very keen to spar with people from other arts, or indeed with no training at all because I doubt I'll ever have to fight another Wing Chun guy in the street and I think that unpredictability is important.

 

I've expereienced the same thing as judoguy. I've only sparred with a few WC guys, but the weren't that great. I know there are some good ones out there - it's all in the training methods. One thing I've noticed from other MA forums is that WC guys tend to talk about theory and lineage ALOT. sometimes I wonder if they talk about it more than test it. Not that that's a bad thing, but until you apply it, you can't really say for yourself how effective it is based on theory and hearsay. The kung fu online forum has a WC forum with some good discussion on similar topics as this. Several of them also think that alot of WC guys are to wrapped up in theory, but when trained properly, it's an excellent style.

[MenteReligieuse]

Kbwannabe, MT is the #1 striking art in the ring for a good reason. I'd say a MT guy with some sanda throws and street brawling wits (is not limited by ring rules) would be very scary indeed.

 

Someone said earlier that a TMA is better than MT in the streets. Well one thing which I came to realise as a weakness in my kf training is that we do not spar enough (we do plenty of juai chiao though). Through full contact sparing one will get to condition his body and mind (one thing I often hear at my kwan is that pain is all in the head )to receiving and dealing blows at full strenght (which is why I started taking freestyle combat classes).

 

Mastering your TMA style is one thing, but if receiving a blow full strenght in the face unsettles you to the point of not being able to corretly apply what you have learned, you probably gonna lose.

 

This is the main strenght of MT that I see, conditioning.

 

ps : yes you can condition yourself as well or even better than MT guys in any styles, but as far as I understand, kickboxing styles are probably the styles that do this the most consistantly.