TKD kicks for kicking people off horses

[manuelito]

rf brown,

 

gen. choi learned karate from his calligraphy teacher first of all.

 

the hwa rang do group did exsist.

 

and tkd is not a korean version of karate.

[RF_Brown]

Yep, and do not forget that pigs will fly, the sun is blue, and the communist Russians invented the telephone.

 

RFB

[Little Dragon]

communist Russians invented the telephone.

hahahahahaha

[miguksaram]

Taekkyon was a street/folk game played by homeless street gangs that was locally popular in Seoul. Highly unlikely Gen. Choi would have learned this growing up in what is now in North Korea.

 

As far as the myth of the "Hwa Rang Dan" goes, please do not even get me started!

 

TKD is a late 20th century Korean version of Japanese Karate. However those Koreans have been great at inventing propaganda to market it.

 

See my post on this thread.

 

I assume you are going for the Captain Obvious award this year. ha.ha.ha.ha.ha..

 

I agree with what you said, outside of the homeless street gangs practicing Taekkyon. It was practiced in more of the lower class citizens, but not zero'd in on the homeless gangs, though popularized mostly by the gangs, which lead to its slow demise.

[DLopez]

Yep, and do not forget that pigs will fly, the sun is blue, and the communist Russians invented the telephone.

 

RFB

 

Okay, oh wise one who eschews aeronautic swine...

 

If the Hwa Rang Do did not exist, and the obvious logical inference that Koreans did not practice any indigenous martial arts, then all Korean martial arts should look very much like either Karate or Chinese Kung Fu, right?

 

Please explain why my MA doesn't look like any other Japanese or Chinese martial art. There may be the obvious similarities (kicking for example), but there are far more differences (stances for example) than similarities as to make it obvious it is NOT simply a "version" of either a Japanese or Chinese MA.

 

Your conclusion that based on the origins of TKD, that the Hwa Rang Do (and probably all other indigenous Korean martial arts history) is fictional has me wildly curious how you made such a jump! Please explain!

 

I eagerly await what's sure to be a very creative response!

[miguksaram]

Hwarang warriors did exist, but they art of Hwarangdo is not as ancient. Their Hwarang practiced military arts as taught by the Chinese.

 

I see you do KSW. You should go look at a Chinese mantis school some day and you will see a lot of similarities to your system. Considering KSW is a mixture of HKD and "family" art, I hate to break this to you, but your stuff is derived from both Chinese and Japanese arts. No it was not a long lost art only taught from father to son, or something reserved strictly for the "royal" families to learn.

 

No one says that Korean didn't have any indegenous arts. However, due to occupation, philosophical and political changes. Most of those art would have died out. Plus, considering they had most of their training from the Chinese government, many of those arts would have had Chinese influences.

[DLopez]

Well, hate to break it to you, but you aren't the first one with the opinion that KSW isn't what it claims, or that indigenous Korean martial arts died out during the Korean occupation.

 

Usually, those opinions are always expressed as if it was truth, when actually, they are merely parroted opinions heard from those wishing to believe the Japanese version of Korean history rather than the Korean version of Korean history as told from Koreans that lived through it. I find that very humorous!

 

But let's examine your assertion a little deeper...

 

Kuk Sa Nim (KSW Grandmaster - In Hyuk Suh) grew up during the Japanese occupation of Korea. That was a time at which Japan was also at war with China.

 

Now if we are to believe that the Japanese outlawed martial arts, and were so successful in enforcing that, that the indigenous martial arts simply died out, then Kuk Sa Nim would have been left with only the choice of learning either Japanese or Chinese martial arts. Since the Japanese were at war with the Chinese, we can conclude that Chinese martial arts were also outlawed during this time as well. That means that Kuk Sa Nim would only have had one practical choice in learning martial arts, and that would have been Karate.

 

But wait, why doesn't KSW look like Karate, even in the remotest way? Because it isn't derived from Karate! And that can only be because martial arts were indeed successfully being taught and preserved in total secret from the Japanese.

 

So now that we have established that the door was open for propagating martial arts during the occupation, it is no stretch to assume that national pride was still intact despite the best efforts of the Japanese, and that traditional Korean martial arts were indeed being preserved. No, these aren't some "long lost" martial arts. In fact, they were never lost; they were preserved.

 

Your reference to an art reserved strictly for the "royal families" shows you have only a cursory knowledge of the basics of Korean martial arts history. In fact, you are trying to refer to the Royal Court martial arts (KoongJoong MuSool), but that wasn't reserved for the "royal families", but rather was practiced by the private armies and bodyguards of the ancient Kings and government officials. KoongJoong MuSool was but one of three indigenous Korean martial arts still alive in Korea. The other two being Tribal Martial Arts (SahDoh MuSool - from which it is considered where TaeKyon was derived), and Buddhist martial arts (BoolKyo MuSool).

 

You also toss out some vague reference - "they had most of their training from the Chinese government"... Who are "they"? The Korean general public? Was this during the Japanese occupation?? Fascinating!!

 

Lastly, the Chinese were not the only ones that mimicked the movements of animals, and if you are going to say KSW is very similar to Chinese Mantis style, then you are focusing on one extremely tiny part of KSW. In fact, KSW utilizes various other animal traits, from the Crane and Tiger as well. I'm surprised you didn't call KSW a Chinese Mantiggerane style!

 

Nope, there's too many inconsistencies abound in your assertions, but I'm sure that won't dissuade you from believing what you think you know. It all sounds plausible on web boards until you start listening to what those that lived through the Japanese occupation of Korea have to say about it.

[miguksaram]

Well, hate to break it to you, but you aren't the first one with the opinion that KSW isn't what it claims, or that indigenous Korean martial arts died out during the Korean occupation.

 

Usually, those opinions are always expressed as if it was truth, when actually, they are merely parroted opinions heard from those wishing to believe the Japanese version of Korean history rather than the Korean version of Korean history as told from Koreans that lived through it. I find that very humorous!

 

Hold up for a second I need to go drink some water. It has been a while since I have been in a peeing contest............ok ready.

 

Opinoins that are based in facts. Let's look at Korean history in general. We'll pick it up from the Shilla Kingdom since that was the equivalent of King Arthor's court for Korea. It was well known that Shilla made a truce with the T'ang kingdom of China and received much of its military training from the Chinese not to mention their aid in the war with the Paekchae and the Koruryo. This is the THEM I am talking about. The Chinese governement was driving force in teaching the Korean soldiers. They did not have any traveling monks teaching secret martial art moves. That was just not how it was. Sorry. There was a very basic class state of mind, Farmers, Merchants, Military, Government oh wait, hookers and slaves as well. These were teh families that you were born into. You didn't have many families with their marital art prowess, again if they did, most likely it was heavily Chinese influenced. You also had the gangsters or thugs who could fight, but it wouldn't really be considered a martial art system so much as just a bunch of guys who could street fight. Now we will fast forward a bit past the Shilla kingdom to the Koryo kingdom (hurry up and flip the pages of your Korean history book forward....don't worry, I'll wait for you to catuch up....ok...there now? Good let's continue)

 

OK..now this is a very significant time for the Koreans and KMA. Why well first of all there was a shift in leadership and with came a shift in policy. However, the first significant hit was the palace burning of 1126, where all of the palace buildings, including tens of thousands of books in the royal library and national academy were burned to the ground. This was a major set back as much of Korea's written history could be found there. It wasn't like you could go to the local library back then. Also, many of the military manuals were also destroyed which would have had most "documented" works. So as we can see that was a major set back. Now let's take in account that the national religion shifted from Buddhism to Confucianism. Now Confucianism strived for perfection of the mind. So to cut to the chase, things such as fighting or practice of martial arts was looked down upon as something only thugs would do. Korea's mentality shifted to more scholary pursuits. This was a good beginning to the dismantling of most indenginous martial arts (which, by the way, there is STILL no documented proof that any them ever existed.)

Now if we are to believe that the Japanese outlawed martial arts, and were so successful in enforcing that, that the indigenous martial arts simply died out, then Kuk Sa Nim would have been left with only the choice of learning either Japanese or Chinese martial arts. Since the Japanese were at war with the Chinese, we can conclude that Chinese martial arts were also outlawed during this time as well. That means that Kuk Sa Nim would only have had one practical choice in learning martial arts, and that would have been Karate.

 

Ok now we are going to take a GIANT leap forward to the annexation of Korea by the Japanese. First of all martial arts was not outlawed. However, anything dealing with Korean culture was. Japanese didn't want to kill of the Korean people, they wanted to destroy their culture. They did this by destroying books, making them learn Japanese language and culture. Yes, there were karate and judo schools around and yes, Koreans were allowed (though mostly the richer Koreans were the ones that practiced). No there were no kung fu schools. I never did say that there were. Now your GM first received his training from his grandfather. His grandfather was part of the military. This would account for the Chinese flavor that you see in KSW...why? (Please refer to my beginning post about the Chinese government helping in the training of the Korean armies) You may also go on to find out if you, REALLY look into your own history past whatever GM tells you, that he studied under GM Ji and GM Choi in HKD.

He has studied martial arts for more than 50 years, receiving his first instruction from his grandfather, Myung Deuk Suh, a master-instructor to the Korean Royal Court. After his grandfather's death, he traveled throughout the Far East seeking out and studying additional aspects of the martial arts.

HELLO This is from his own website. He traveled throughout the FAR EAST....ummm...I believe that might include China. He developed his art from other arts he studied. This was not something that came from arts indengenous from Korea.

I'm surprised you didn't call KSW a Chinese Mantiggerane style!

 

And I'm surprised that you don't know more about your own art at your own rank. Do yourself a favor. Go beyond the history that is spoon fed to you and learn for yourself.

 

BTW...I am not some Japanese Karate loving propoganda spewing Korean martial art hater. I have had 24 years in the arts, 20 which have been focused in the Korean arts in which I studied up on their histories as well as actual Korean history. Now if you'll excuse me I must shake, and put it back in and zip up my pants. My side of the contest is done.....for now.

[DLopez]

Ahem... Dude, the way you post, I'd have thought it was gonna be bigger...

 

I'll spare the readers any more silly references to your shortcomings...

 

 

It was well known that Shilla made a truce with the T'ang kingdom of China and received much of its military training from the Chinese not to mention their aid in the war with the Paekchae and the Koruryo. This is the THEM I am talking about. The Chinese governement was driving force in teaching the Korean soldiers. They did not have any traveling monks teaching secret martial art moves. That was just not how it was.

 

I snipped this out because the rest of the paragraph because I detect a particular strategy of yours; that of "making up" points just to shoot them down.

 

I am well aware that Confucianism became the dominant religion in Korea, but Buddhism did not die, Buddhist monks did not disappear, and nobody said the buddhist monks traveled about teaching their martial art moves. What is known is that Buddhist monks were sometimes called upon to help fight in battles, and were extremely skilled in MA. If you want to believe that the knowledge they posessed simply died out, then that would be a weak interpretation of history on your part.

 

Now, as for your assertion that only soldiers knew martial arts, then you must be placing some artificial qualification on what constitutes a martial art. Quite frankly, SahDoh MuSool predates the Shilla Kingdom by millenia. It was what "ordinary thugs" used to protect their clans and tribes from invaders and warring neighboring tribes. Yes, much of Korea's written history is lost forever, but nevertheless, evidence of such martial art has been depicted in paintings and other artwork, which I'll admit are not as hard-fast evidence as written works, but it is still very compelling. It makes it extremely difficult to say all that died out, when there is evidence it survived (in TaeKyon for example).

 

Moving on to KSW in particular, if you believe what was written in your little snippet regarding Kuk Sa Nim's training, then believe the whole, and not just one tiny part removed from context. Yes, Kuk Sa Nim travelled throughout the Far East, but you left out the part of where he specifically says he visited - Korean Buddhist temples.

 

He also studied under these other masters you named, but here's the part you seem to have not understood: You have concluded that everything he learned from everyone he studied under went into KSW. Kuk Sa Nim has only ever said that what has gone into KSW is what he filtered into it. KSW does NOT contain everything he learned from everyone he trained under. He judiciously chose what techniques and forms would become KSW, with the eye on keeping it as traditionally Korean as possible. This is most notable in his inclusion of Ki breathing, meditation, and pressure point knowledge, which he attributes to the Korean Buddhist monks. If you believe such an endeavor is impossible, that reflects more on your own shortcomings. I find it a remarkable feat myself.

 

That all being said, I am not claiming that none of the indigenous Korean martial arts were never influenced by Chinese or Japanese. But what I find most revealing is that you seem to think this exchange of ideas was all one-sided, that MA knowledge flowed only from China into Korea. That is a very contemptuous position to take for someone claiming to be so well-versed in Far East history.

 

There was simply too much interchange of knowledge passing back at forth at various times. On the contrary, I am merely scoffing at your inference that Chinese martial arts are at the root of Korean martial arts, and in particular KSW.

 

I must say though, it is refreshing to not be dealing with someone that insists that all Korean martial arts are Japanese derivatives for a change.

 

BTW - I hope you didn't get any on your leg, and uh... don't shake it too many times. You know what they say.

[miguksaram]

Ahem... Dude, the way you post, I'd have thought it was gonna be bigger...

 

I actually liked that one.

I'll spare the readers any more silly references to your shortcomings...

 

And yet you continue to expose all of yours?

 

 

I detect a particular strategy of yours; that of "making up" points just to shoot them down.

 

Please point out any of my "made up" points. These are points taken from the history books not pulles out of my anus.

I am well aware that Confucianism became the dominant religion in Korea, but Buddhism did not die, Buddhist monks did not disappear, and nobody said the buddhist monks traveled about teaching their martial art moves. What is known is that Buddhist monks were sometimes called upon to help fight in battles, and were extremely skilled in MA. If you want to believe that the knowledge they posessed simply died out, then that would be a weak interpretation of history on your part.

 

I never said buddhist monks died out. However, please point out in Korean history where the monks were called out to fight in the wars? You are mixing Chinese history with Korean history. That or you are watching way too many Super Samurai Sunday movies. However, if you can point out from acutal Korean history where they called upon the Korean Buddhist monks to fight in their wars, I will concede this point. However, if your really want to nit pick then answer me this, where did the buddhist monks of Korea originate from? Answer....they were taught by the Chinese monks.

Now, as for your assertion that only soldiers knew martial arts, then you must be placing some artificial qualification on what constitutes a martial art.

 

Never did I say only soldiers knew martial arts. What I did say was they were taught by Chinese government. The common people may have known how to fight but they were not in any way shape or form an organized militia. They did not have any thing placed together in an organized matter to train fighters in systematic way. Would you say a street gang member who fights is a martial artist? How about a neighborhood kid who just throws punches wildly in the air when he/she fights. Is that martial arts?

Quite frankly, SahDoh MuSool predates the Shilla Kingdom by millenia. It was what "ordinary thugs" used to protect their clans and tribes from invaders and warring neighboring tribes. Yes, much of Korea's written history is lost forever, but nevertheless, evidence of such martial art has been depicted in paintings and other artwork, which I'll admit are not as hard-fast evidence as written works, but it is still very compelling. It makes it extremely difficult to say all that died out, when there is evidence it survived (in TaeKyon for example).

 

Taekkyon is a bad example to use as it was never seen as a martial art until its recent rediscovery. Taekkyon was a folk/gambling game in which two contestants would try to knock each other down using sweeps, kicks and throws. It was something that even most commoners looked down to only drunken thugs would play. Now that it has be rediscovered, many Koreans are quick to say that it is a martial art, because it is theclosest thing they have to an indengenous martial art.

 

So far no evidence that you have shown me comes close to saying that KSW is such an art, or any KMA for that matter.

Moving on to KSW in particular, if you believe what was written in your little snippet regarding Kuk Sa Nim's training, then believe the whole, and not just one tiny part removed from context. Yes, Kuk Sa Nim travelled throughout the Far East, but you left out the part of where he specifically says he visited - Korean Buddhist temples.

 

First of all, I never said I believed him, I merely pointed out that your own GM says that his training happened as he traveled to Far East Asia. Secondly, are you telling me that your definition of Far East Asia is Korean Buddhist Temples? You need to get a map and look around Far East Asia extends past the temple of buddha in Korea. Third, not every freaking Buddhist temple practices Sun Mu Do. Actually, barely a handful of them do. Wait actually may be one or two of them do. By the way, Sun Mu Do is a Korean version of Chinese Kung fu as it was handed down by your warrior monks. Perhaps I wasn't looking hard enough when I would travel back and forth from here and Korea. Perhaps my wife and her family just didn't visit the right temples when they would go pray. Keep in mind that his visitation and stay at the temples were not for his martial arts but for his spiritual practice. Some of the Korean KSW leaders have been known to do this.

He also studied under these other masters you named, but here's the part you seem to have not understood: You have concluded that everything he learned from everyone he studied under went into KSW. Kuk Sa Nim has only ever said that what has gone into KSW is what he filtered into it. KSW does NOT contain everything he learned from everyone he trained under. He judiciously chose what techniques and forms would become KSW, with the eye on keeping it as traditionally Korean as possible. This is most notable in his inclusion of Ki breathing, meditation, and pressure point knowledge, which he attributes to the Korean Buddhist monks. If you believe such an endeavor is impossible, that reflects more on your own shortcomings. I find it a remarkable feat myself.

 

No that is not impossible, I never said it was impossible. You seem to be jumping from this debate. First of all you stated that KSW is neither Japanese or Chinese but a Korean art. I have since provided you evidence to the contrary. Now you tend to put word in my mouth, or in this case letters in my postings about what I believe and don't believe. You have said that I am making up points and that most of rantings are that of a people who believe that all Korean arts come from the Japanese. Again my rantings are based on facts that are readily available if you dig deep enough to find them.

That all being said, I am not claiming that none of the indigenous Korean martial arts were never influenced by Chinese or Japanese.

 

Then they are not Indigenous...BTW...let's look at that word...Indigenous- Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment or having originated in and being produced, growing, or living naturally in a particular region or environment (note: Definitions taken from Dictionary.com) If these arts were influenced by outside factors they are not indigenous. I can teach a monkey how to punch and kick. I am not saying Koreans have never fought in their lives prior to exchanging ideas with Chinese. What I am saying is that they did not put together organized systems of fighting, until later in the 16th or 17th century. Even then that was a manual used by military not by commoners.

But what I find most revealing is that you seem to think this exchange of ideas was all one-sided, that MA knowledge flowed only from China into Korea. That is a very contemptuous position to take for someone claiming to be so well-versed in Far East history.

 

See there you go again. First of all I never said I was well versed in Far East History. I told you that I studied Korean history, more to the point I researched Korean history and how it could verify or detract from claims of the KMA community. Secondly you should read up on the migration of the mongolians. You would see that they went through China prior to settling in Korea. So yes I would have to say a vast majority was one sided at this point.

There was simply too much interchange of knowledge passing back at forth at various times. On the contrary, I am merely scoffing at your inference that Chinese martial arts are at the root of Korean martial arts, and in particular KSW.

 

Yes...yes...and be careful because with this line of logic you may scoff at my notion that the world is not flat. BTW...please honor me with your credentials in this matter. Also, I hope you don't think I am saying that KSW is worthless art. Far from it. I find it to be a great martial art. I have studied with some fine practitioners of is such as GM Rudy Timmerman and GM Yu as well as GM Park.

BTW - I hope you didn't get any on your leg, and uh... don't shake it too many times. You know what they say.

 

Sorry it took me so long to write back. It was hard see the messages. I seem to be going blind for some reason.