Another "which is best", but with a twist

[AeroScout]

This site looks like a great place to get the advice I need so here goes. I'm currently about to graduate from Army flight school and will no doubt be heading to the middle east within the next couple of years. I fly OH-58D Kiowa Warriors which are always in the thick of things over there. The beheading of foreigners by Zarqawi's group has got me to thinking about what I would do if I was shot down and faced with a situation where my only chance of survival was hand to hand combat with a superior number of individuals. Being a Helo pilot, I have a higher than average chance of becoming a captive of this type of group and these days it appears that any American serviceman captured by these groups will have no chance of survival without somehow making an escape.

 

This brings me to my question. In such a situation, which Martial Art would give me the best tools to have a chance of overcoming my captors and effecting an escape? I don't have any delusions about becoming Steven Seagal, able to fight my way out 200 bad guys with Ak-47s but I would like to be as well equipped as possible. Here are my stats:

 

* 29 Years Old

 

* 5'9"

 

* 190lb

 

* Decent Shape but could use to tighten up a bit.

 

* The most inflexible person you've ever heard of, but would like to improve.

 

Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to read this and I hope to hear from someone who can shed some light on the subject. Thanks.

 

- AS

[Beiner]

wont you be going through basic training?

[delta1]

First, sir, I wish to thank you for your service in time of war! And it is not lost on us that we have a volunteer Army.

 

In your case, I'd recomend one of the short, reality CQC courses. My opinion is that the ones based on Fairbane-Sykes and Col. Rex Applegate's WWII combatives are some of the best out there. there are others that also do a good job, and some that don't. Krav Maga is the flavor of the month right now, and some swear by it. Some don't care for it, and I find that they can be dangerouse to the practitioner as much as the opponent. If you can find a school, my advice is to check it out, but use a lot of discretion. Actually, that goes for any school or system you try.

 

What I look for in a reality based fighting art:

 

* First off, DO THEY SPAR? They should spar often, and sometimes with hard contact. Stress should be added to their sparing also.

 

* Do they train for situational awareness? Recognition of signs of imminent assault? De-escalation skills?

 

* What about psychological and phisiological factors?

 

* Post fight concerns, such as restraint, personal expedient first aid, clearing a scene, etc.?

 

* Obviousely, weapons use and disarms would be good (one area that KM is woefully ineffective at, from the little I've seen).

 

* In your case, I'd look at escape, evasion, orienteering and also survival.

 

The more of these the school does, the more realistic it is. You may have to go to more than one school to get a lot of this. There are also resources on the net and, in your case, military manuals and training. You might consider getting a group together and training a lot on your own. Go to your Training Officer and see what he can do for you. See if there are any current or ex SF/SPEC OPS personnel that would be willing to help you out.

 

I wish you 'fair winds and following seas'- or is that 'fair skies and tail winds'? At any rate, good luck!

[Shorin Ryuu]

I've had some of the standard military hand-to-hand combat training and compared my experiences with those in the Army, Navy and Marines and they all didn't seem that too spectacular. I've also wrestled with some of those people (including a Marine cop) and I wasn't too impressed either (not that they were bad, they just weren't the steely-eyed killing machines I had envisioned). As far as evasion/survival and all that, you've already had that specific part of training, I assume, as you're already a pilot (I'm not too up on all the Army stuff though).

 

I'm biased, of course, but I would recommend that you find a good Shorin Ryu school and sort of explain your situation to the instructor. One of the biggest reasons why I like Shorin Ryu is because it is a mix of striking and grappling. A lot of teachers will use a little groundwork as well, which is important, but you have to remember that in a combat situation, you don't want to end up on the ground. It is good to be able to fight there if forced to, but very undesireable due to the likelihood of multiple attackers.

 

But even in special ops training and that sort, a lot of the training is very simple, as much of the quickest and effective ways of disabling people are not quite as palatable to most people, even soldiers. One example is that sometimes oranges would be taped over the eyes of a partner and the other person would take his thumb and puncture/mutilate/etc. the orange, to simply get them less squeamish about really doing that to a person's eye in battle, which will incapacitate them sufficiently to do other things.

 

I know quite a few Shorin Ryu karateka that used their training in combat, use their training in combat, or are currently employed in the "executive protection" business.

[AeroScout]

First off, thanks to you all for your replies and advice. I will keep in mind what you say about what to look for.

 

I completed Basic Training 10 years ago and it had an incredible 1 day of hand to hand combat training. Extremely Ineffective to say the least. One thing I can tell you for certain is that in an Aviation Unit, if you go to the Training Officer and request a hand to hand combat training program be established, you will meet some serious resistance. Not to say I will not try but just keeping Aviators competent in their war time mission is quite a challenge in itself. As far as Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape (SERE) school goes, I will be heading there within 2 months. I still have to finish the last phase of flight training first.

 

As for the CQC Courses, I will look into that for sure but would like to follow on with a discipline I can continue with on a regular basis. One with emphasis on real world first and foremost but with ways to continue to progress and challenge myself.

 

What do you think of Tai Kwon-do? I seem to remember seeing a school in Federal Way Washington that touted Tai Kwon-Do as one of the more combative disciplines. This was 10 years ago and I went into the Army before starting the program.

 

Thanks again for the comments and I will begin researching your suggestions. I look forward to hearing some more opinions.

 

AS

[delta1]

But even in special ops training and that sort, a lot of the training is very simple, as much of the quickest and effective ways of disabling people are not quite as palatable to most people, even soldiers.

 

That is the point to taking a CQC course. War, and especially capture by Muslim extremists, is brutal. Training for that eventuality should be realistic, not palatable. And due to time constraints he needs a course that he can gain a level of competency in quickly. That is what the CQC courses were designed for.

One thing I can tell you for certain is that in an Aviation Unit, if you go to the Training Officer and request a hand to hand combat training program be established, you will meet some serious resistance.

 

Given this, I'd suggest you really try to get togethr a few friends and work on your own while still taking advantage of whatever the Army will give you.

 

After taking the CQC course(s), it would be a good idea to learn a more in deapth martial art. But you are apparently a career soldier, so you will have to consider availability of classes in different areas you may be stationed at.

 

TKD is readily available, and can be trained as an effective combative art. But it is rarely done so. Also, the combative TKD schools I've seen and worked out with added other systems to round out their curriculum. A combative art should train at all ranges as well, and TKD is more long range/kicking. It has some excellant in close moves, but few practitioners can extrapolate them.

 

The FMA's (Filipino Martial Arts) are popular, and most are very effective- especially if you can find one that incorporates Fillipino grappling. But again, you have to watch out for the tendency to fight at long range only, depending on the weapon to keep your opponent at bay. A good FMA fights at largo (long), medio (medium), and corto (close) ranges, and does stand up and ground grappling.

 

My base is American Kenpo, and it is an excellant combative art. My school is about a three hour drive away, so I take private lessons instead of a regular class. It is a good way to go, but slow to learn as I only go to class once a month. Doing it this way, you definately need at least one (more is better) good partner to train and work out with regularly, and to share expenses with. I also do a video course, which keeps me going. It is the IKCA Kenpo course, and it is very popular to mix with either Kenpo/Kempo styles, or with other styles. The thing about Kenpo is that it teaches not only basics and moves, but understanding. It trains understanding of not only applications, but principles and concepts. PM me if you are interested, and I'll give you some contact information.

 

There are a lot of other very effective systems out there. The real challenge is finding one that meeets your needs, and suits your personality. Good luck in your search.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

I've had some of the standard military hand-to-hand combat training and compared my experiences with those in the Army, Navy and Marines and they all didn't seem that too spectacular. I've also wrestled with some of those people (including a Marine cop) and I wasn't too impressed either (not that they were bad, they just weren't the steely-eyed killing machines I had envisioned). As far as evasion/survival and all that, you've already had that specific part of training, I assume, as you're already a pilot (I'm not too up on all the Army stuff though).

 

I'm biased, of course, but I would recommend that you find a good Shorin Ryu school and sort of explain your situation to the instructor. One of the biggest reasons why I like Shorin Ryu is because it is a mix of striking and grappling. A lot of teachers will use a little groundwork as well, which is important, but you have to remember that in a combat situation, you don't want to end up on the ground. It is good to be able to fight there if forced to, but very undesireable due to the likelihood of multiple attackers.

 

But even in special ops training and that sort, a lot of the training is very simple, as much of the quickest and effective ways of disabling people are not quite as palatable to most people, even soldiers. One example is that sometimes oranges would be taped over the eyes of a partner and the other person would take his thumb and puncture/mutilate/etc. the orange, to simply get them less squeamish about really doing that to a person's eye in battle, which will incapacitate them sufficiently to do other things.

 

I know quite a few Shorin Ryu karateka that used their training in combat, use their training in combat, or are currently employed in the "executive protection" business.

 

I'm in agreement with this. Shorinryu is a very effective, and realistic martial art that trains you in all aspects..while being a traditional martial art. The techniques, depending on how the sensei teaches, are relatively simple, non-flashy, effective and realistic.

 

As for the realistic combat arts taht delta1 mentioned..I have no experience with them, so I really can't comment on them.

 

When I was in the army...back in '72-74 during the Vietnam war, the hand to hand combat training I had was basically a joke. At the time I thought it was great, but a few years later I started my study of Shorinryu, and it was rather apparent that the training I had in the Army was just plan worthless IMHO. One day total is all, and how much of that do you think you'd remember if you really needed it? Zippo!

 

I'm sure Navy Seal, Green Beret, Delta, etrc. training is much better...or I sure hope so anyway!

[Vito]

let me first salute you sir, in your service. * what anyone says, i honor you more than nearly anyone. i wish the best to you and sincerely hope that you and all your comrads come out okay, and kill the * terrorrist bastards ignorant enough to fight you.

 

with that said, man, pack heat. i can honestly say that a martial art will not save you in such situations as being surrounded by arabs with machien guns. i pray to all gods i dont beleive in that it doesnt happen, but from bjj and mt to those * martial arts... nothing can save you from that. bjj ant mt im my opinion are the best hand to hand martial arts, but in war time situations... its not all about that. hope im not bringing you down, im just saying as it seems to me.

 

anyway, best of luck to you, i hope you do well.

[delta1]

vito, I agree on packing heat. So does the Army! But, I think what he's talking about is the possibility that he's captured (the enemy doesn't believe we should carry heat in that situation) or in an escape and evasion situation- like being shot down in hostile territory. H2H and sentry removal skills, quick and silent kills, and sometimes securing locals who may not be combatants but may be sympathetic to them, are the order of the day. BJJ or Sambo are good, but you'd need something a little more direct and well rounded than Muay Thai. Use of improvised weapons, weapons defenses, knife work, and a lot of self defense are important, as well as the offensive aspects of the ma's.

 

Having said all that, it would still be good to find some MT guys and train with them. A lot can be gleaned from them and incorporated to his base, after he does the CQC course. Same with any other fighting art. In his situation, where he could be transfered anywhere and doesn't know what will be available, getting a good base and adding to it from different systems could be the way to go.

 

Just my take on it.

[AeroScout]

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond. Vito - your comments on the service are much appreciated.

 

Delta1 is right about the situation I fear the most. Basically being pulled from a balled up helicopter by folks that will pass me around for a few weeks then saw my head off on camera. In the past, being passive was your best shot at making it out of a POW situation alive. Now, it seems the best course of action is to remain passive until that one explosive moment when you see a weakness and make your best effort to escape. Having some sort of training would not only boost a persons confidence but help them to recognize a weakness when it presents itself. This is not the movies so I realize that even a very well trained person still has a slim chance of making it out, but a slim chance is better than no chance at all.

 

Delta1 - Could you clarify "MT" and "BJJ"? Thanks.

 

AS